Why you guys aren't crushing these Microlimit games...

[MrWookie]

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Why should you continue when the pot is big but fold when it is small? 8-to-1 is 8-to-1, after all. The reason is that later bets are smaller in proportion to the pot when it is big than when it is small. Calling down with a marginal made hand is cheaper when the pot contains 16 small bets and it is 2 small bets to you than when it contains only 8 small bets and it is 1 small bet to you.

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Could be missing something here - but isn't 16:2 the same as 8:1 ??

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Yes, but he's talking about the bets on the later streets as well. Say you're getting 16-2 and you call, everyone else folds. Now 18 sb in the pot, or 9 bb on the turn. When you are bet into on the turn, you are now getting 10-1 on your call. But in an 8 sb pot, you call one, now there are 9 sb in the pot, or 4.5 BB on the turn. So when you call on the turn, now you are only getting 5.5-1. In theory, it has now become more expensive for you to call due to the fact that the pot is small.

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I don't remember seeing this earlier, but I actually disagree with this pretty adamently. The main area where people get this post horribly wrong is that they forgot how the pot was made big. It's not like Party just magically threw 16 SB into the pot as part of some promotion and also happened to make the two bets facing you the result of altering their softare to make the first bet on the flop double sized. No, a 16 SB pot with 2 bets to you is the product of not only a lot of callers, but also bettors and raisers. And the more betting and raising there is, the more marginal anything that's not the nuts starts looking.

The fact of the matter is, top pair with a medium kicker starts to look like a marginal, but decent hand facing one bet, but it starts looking pretty bad facing two, even in a large pot. It's even in SSH. NPA himself says that you should be much more inclined to fold getting 16:2 than getting 8:1 because the probability that you're beaten when facing two people who like their hands, one of whom really likes his hand, is much, much greater than beating out one guy who likes his hand. This is the same idea as being hesitant to overcall, but magnified even more.

Edit: This is different if you have a draw instead of a made hand. You should be more inclined to cold call on the flop with a weakish draw to the nuts getting 16:2 than you should with a marginal made hand that may or may not be best getting 16:2. With a draw in a big pot, your draw will be priced better on the big streets AND you're more likely to get paid off by people calling and hoping in the big pot. With a marginal made hand that doesn't have many outs, say, KK on an Axx flop facing 16:2, you're more likely to be at a strong disadvantage and burning money en route to the river.

[bennyhana]

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Why should you continue when the pot is big but fold when it is small? 8-to-1 is 8-to-1, after all. The reason is that later bets are smaller in proportion to the pot when it is big than when it is small. Calling down with a marginal made hand is cheaper when the pot contains 16 small bets and it is 2 small bets to you than when it contains only 8 small bets and it is 1 small bet to you.

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Could be missing something here - but isn't 16:2 the same as 8:1 ??

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Yes, but he's talking about the bets on the later streets as well. Say you're getting 16-2 and you call, everyone else folds. Now 18 sb in the pot, or 9 bb on the turn. When you are bet into on the turn, you are now getting 10-1 on your call. But in an 8 sb pot, you call one, now there are 9 sb in the pot, or 4.5 BB on the turn. So when you call on the turn, now you are only getting 5.5-1. In theory, it has now become more expensive for you to call due to the fact that the pot is small.

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I don't remember seeing this earlier, but I actually disagree with this pretty adamently. The main area where people get this post horribly wrong is that they forgot how the pot was made big. It's not like Party just magically threw 16 SB into the pot as part of some promotion and also happened to make the two bets facing you the result of altering their softare to make the first bet on the flop double sized. No, a 16 SB pot with 2 bets to you is the product of not only a lot of callers, but also bettors and raisers. And the more betting and raising there is, the more marginal anything that's not the nuts starts looking.

The fact of the matter is, top pair with a medium kicker starts to look like a marginal, but decent hand facing one bet, but it starts looking pretty bad facing two, even in a large pot. It's even in SSH. NPA himself says that you should be much more inclined to fold getting 16:2 than getting 8:1 because the probability that you're beaten when facing two people who like their hands, one of whom really likes his hand, is much, much greater than beating out one guy who likes his hand. This is the same idea as being hesitant to overcall, but magnified even more.

Edit: This is different if you have a draw instead of a made hand. You should be more inclined to cold call on the flop with a weakish draw to the nuts getting 16:2 than you should with a marginal made hand that may or may not be best getting 16:2. With a draw in a big pot, your draw will be priced better on the big streets AND you're more likely to get paid off by people calling and hoping in the big pot. With a marginal made hand that doesn't have many outs, say, KK on an Axx flop facing 16:2, you're more likely to be at a strong disadvantage and burning money en route to the river.

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To all the newer multitalbers, please read and remember the part in bold. Don't just look at your hand and the pot and say, hey, I've got this and the pot is this, so I call. Think about every click. Say why you are doing something out loud if you have to. Just tell you wife you thought she was in the shower or something. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[thefoosball]

i just heard about this post on an article on ed millers blog. on ed millers blog. omg i cant believe i missed it before anyway if any1 else needs to read it ill give it a big fat BUMPOOOOOOOOYA!!!!

[MrWookie]

Sounds like you need to check out the rest of the links at the bottom of the FAQ.

[thefoosball]

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Sounds like you need to check out the rest of the links at the bottom of the FAQ.

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huh? what you talkin bout willis?

[thefoosball]

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Sounds like you need to check out the rest of the links at the bottom of the FAQ.

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huh? what you talkin bout willis?

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o duh i see it now. thanks a bunch dude ill be reading all night lol.

[00Snitch]

still sad that now when this post gets bumped eds name isnt red [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[ESKiMO-SiCKNE5S]

bump - so relevant right now....

[sparky3474]

There was a post just this morning where someone limped in with A3s on the button after two limpers. The big blind raise behind and everyone called. The flop was AQ2, and the action went BB bet, one limper called, and it was your action. You have top frickin pair in a big (i.e. raised) pot, and it is one bet to you. The BB's bet shows no more strength than what he showed when he raised before the flop. He could easily have KQ or TT or 76s. The limper called... that means he has.. well, two cards. You are getting 11-1 on a call, and did I mention that you have top frickin pair?

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In SSHE there is a hand on pg 266 that has Ac7c in middle position and the board is AdTd9s and it is 2 bets to you and 10 small bets in the pot and it is a labeled a clear fold. Here it is almost the same hand except it is now 1 bet to you and twice the odds ie 11 to 1 and the advice is "do not fold". So I have to assume that somewhere between 5 to 1 and 11 to 1 there exists a sharp divide, please tell me where it is ie 7 to 1, 2 bets to you, when do you change gears?

[BigBadBabar]

well 2 bets to you is a lot different than 1 bet to you