Reads (general)

[Jim14Qc]

Hi, most of the players here (winning ones!) seem to have good reads on almost all the opponents that have been at the table for a while. What I'm interested in is HOW you get those reads, because I find myself lacking them. For example, I've played about 5-10+ hours over the week-end with the same guy at 2-3+ tables (he was multi-tabling pretty much all FR Paradise .5/1) and I still couldn't change my play according to a read on him EXCEPT when he tries a blind steal, he'll keep bet-bluffing untill the river with air. That's ALL.

Now, do most of you just pay extra careful attention to all hands (including those you're not involved in obviously) and remember all that or have a HUD (Pokerace flickers SO much I didn't quite like it all that much and it didn't work very well either for some reason on stars for me) or setup tables on PT while you play? Anything else I might be missing?

When my money's back at a decent size I'll probably try to open a table in PT and assign every seat to a player and use the stats from there, but that's going to be a hassle with 2-3 tables. Anyone tried that with success?

Well seems like this post isn't very to the point but that's about it. Thanks.

[Guruman]

whoo, if you're not adjusting to a guy after 5-10 hrs with him then you're not paying nearly enough attention to lots and lots and lots of his tendancies.

My suggestions:
1)play some limit headsup tourneys. These will force you to focus in and adjust - then counter adjust to your opposition. Very good for general practice with regards to flow and reading players.

2)turn your hud off for a couple of sessions. Use only your notepad and use it frequently.

3)when taking notes - only note the things that will matter in a hand. Use a touch of shorthand, but not so much that you cant interpret your own notes quickly. I jst tnd to drp vowls.

Some things to note:

-if villains induce bluffs
-whether they donk with air or with pairs (its rarely both)
-if they raise the turn with less than top pair
-if they check through the river with a made hand
-how they play flush draws and oesds.
-coldcall hands

an alternate method of notetaking is to go ahead and construct the counterstrategy within the note. For example:

vlubet me, dont blff. dont clldwn turn rs w less thn tptk

or

chck mde hands to me. nvr fold a pr, try nt to fld Ahi.

etc.

Also, there are several great threads on notetaking in this forum. Do a search and also check the faq.

[MrWookie]

Um, written notes?

[Guruman]

oh, also note three street bluffs, flop checkthrus when they should contbet, and any other non-standard line that dudes may take against you.

Also don't forget to note when players are either very very bad or when they are better than you.

[OziBattler]

Jim,

at 2+2 we love reads but having reads relevant to a given situation is not always possible so we take what we can get. If all you have is stats then so be it. The thing is, on difficult hands, reads can be a decider......on standard hands sometimes a read doesnt really matter unless your villain is at an extreme (eg a maniac who you have to get to SD with any sort of hand)

Now, Ill be honest, I dont get great reads all the time because I multitable......and reads do get sacrificed to some degree. This means that I do find that I miss some reads but I still am able to keep a general eye on the action. If I find that Im not getting ANY reads then that usually is a sign that Im tired and/or playing too many tables.

I use SD information (which is why PAHUD Is awesom cos you can see mucked cards for sites that provide that) for getting a lot of my reads. sometimes it takes a single SD hand to realise a player is bad. I find its easier to quickly pick the bad players than the good ones. tis true that not all tight players are good. many are predictable which should make them not hard to play against....even if extracting $ from them isnt as easy as against other player types.

The reads I usually get are of the following varieties.
1. A hand, whether im in it or not, catches my eye and I pray that I get to see SD cards so I can piece together the action (you can surmise from this that I dont watch every hand that is played...but I try and pay attention to ones that seem interesting)
2. I see the same action a few times from a player (eg he steals from button or cutoff when folded to him or always sees a turn but can fold to a 2nd c-bet)
3. a player does something really out of line

As far as stats go, I use HUD stats (Vpip, pfr, aggro factor, cold call) on other ppl if thats all i have. I am very familiar with my stats and I use them as a comparision point. By this i mean that I know what my stats are and feel that I can look at another players vpip/pfr, compare to mine and try and put myself in their shoes and give them some sort of range. eg Mr 16/7 and Mr 20/11 have different raising standards. Preflop, when betting and raising, Mr 20/11 is more likely to be isolating or stealing than Mr 16/7 who probably just bets and raises preflop for value. This is something that I think comes with practice and getting familiar with pokertracker and stats in general.

I probably missed a few things in this post, oh well, such is life

ozi

ps I also find that note taking becomes a pain in the ass on certain sites when multitablign as you keep losing focus
pps there are some good posts around on taking notes etc...I dont have the links for them right now but Im sure someone else will provide them (eg from micro wiki library or a compiliation post containing said threads).

[bennyhana]

nomad on notes.

davelin on notes

the link library a ton of links in this whole thread.

[Befolder]

[ QUOTE ]
Jim,

at 2+2 we love reads but having reads relevant to a given situation is not always possible so we take what we can get. If all you have is stats then so be it. The thing is, on difficult hands, reads can be a decider......on standard hands sometimes a read doesnt really matter unless your villain is at an extreme (eg a maniac who you have to get to SD with any sort of hand)

Now, Ill be honest, I dont get great reads all the time because I multitable......and reads do get sacrificed to some degree. This means that I do find that I miss some reads but I still am able to keep a general eye on the action. If I find that Im not getting ANY reads then that usually is a sign that Im tired and/or playing too many tables.

I use SD information (which is why PAHUD Is awesom cos you can see mucked cards for sites that provide that) for getting a lot of my reads. sometimes it takes a single SD hand to realise a player is bad. I find its easier to quickly pick the bad players than the good ones. tis true that not all tight players are good. many are predictable which should make them not hard to play against....even if extracting $ from them isnt as easy as against other player types.

The reads I usually get are of the following varieties.
1. A hand, whether im in it or not, catches my eye and I pray that I get to see SD cards so I can piece together the action (you can surmise from this that I dont watch every hand that is played...but I try and pay attention to ones that seem interesting)
2. I see the same action a few times from a player (eg he steals from button or cutoff when folded to him or always sees a turn but can fold to a 2nd c-bet)
3. a player does something really out of line

As far as stats go, I use HUD stats (Vpip, pfr, aggro factor, cold call) on other ppl if thats all i have. I am very familiar with my stats and I use them as a comparision point. By this i mean that I know what my stats are and feel that I can look at another players vpip/pfr, compare to mine and try and put myself in their shoes and give them some sort of range. eg Mr 16/7 and Mr 20/11 have different raising standards. Preflop, when betting and raising, Mr 20/11 is more likely to be isolating or stealing than Mr 16/7 who probably just bets and raises preflop for value. This is something that I think comes with practice and getting familiar with pokertracker and stats in general.

I probably missed a few things in this post, oh well, such is life

ozi

ps I also find that note taking becomes a pain in the ass on certain sites when multitablign as you keep losing focus
pps there are some good posts around on taking notes etc...I dont have the links for them right now but Im sure someone else will provide them (eg from micro wiki library or a compiliation post containing said threads).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good post and probably what OP needed to read.

[Burning_K]

Like Aussie said about looking at the showdown info - I'm used to not playing with a HUD and when I join a table generally spend the first orbit or so watching every hand played. When one goes to showdown I'll open up the hand history and make notes of the cards the opponents played and their bet/raise/calling behaviour during the hand.

As well as the notes already mentioned in this thread I have two extra lines for the hands I see played - 'pre flop raise' hands and 'had at showdown hands' (or limped/coldcalled hands if you like). This also includes the position opponent was in and if they called/raised it or not.
i.e. 99 3bet utg, KQo cc mp, 72o cap bb.
To keep it cleaner if it's a standard play like an open raise with AA from whatever position I won't add all the extra details.

If I make a note I'm not too sure on I'll put a '?' by it until I see more evidence of that particular behaviour.

Using HUD stats is a new thing for me. I don't want to get into the habit of just using stats so I make notes first and switch the stats on later (I still make notes of course when I see weird things happening). I only play two tables as well.

[Bilgefisher]

Notes are pretty big imo, but only if you use them and take good notes. I get mad at myself if Ive played at least 100 hands against someone and have no manual notes on them. Its one way I try and force myself to pay attention to the action. Less face it, its very easy to be distracted or let your mind wonder.