How often do you leave a great game due to a poor seat?

[relativity_x]

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I was up 60+BB in 4 hrs. on this kind of table

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You must have been on one helluva a heater catching cards left and right because you can't out play opponents in SSHE.

[dreed]

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I can't remember ever leaving a good game due to bad relative position. And I've been in that situation many, many times.

It's all a question of adjusting your gameplay. Forget about blind stealing. Don't feel like you have to raise your borderline starting hands...with that many loose players to your left, it might be better to limp first in from MP with your KQo, KJs, AT type hands. Ditto goes for speculative hands...assuming they are also fairly passive, you can limp in with near impunity holding small pairs, suited connectors, suited aces, etc.

It's obviously better to have position on the donkeys, be able to take your free cards or raise your strong hands & whatnot. But by adjusting your own game to the conditions, you should still have a very good expectancy while out of position. And, incidentally, loose/passives are also pretty good about giving you free cards, if you'll let them. I.e., don't feel like you have to fire again on the turn with A high 100% of the time...in fact, in most cases it's better to check/fold there against these types of players. Even the flop continuation bet shouldn't be overdone.

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WELL SAID

[HoneyBadger]

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OMG! Do you hate $?. This is the prototypical table on which SSHE was built! And this is the Small Stakes LHE Forum.

Sat. I was up 60+BB in 4 hrs. on this kind of table. Sun. It took me almost 3 hrs. to find a winning hand and I was down almost 20BB at that point and still wound up 10BB+ for the day. Thank GOD for all those MISTAKES MADE BY OTHERS, even though they can and will chase you down (sometimes. not all the time).

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You don't have to explain the game to me. It's easier having the choice to raise limpers with position than getting your money in on blind edges without position.

Oh last time I sat down on such a table I left in disgust with 100 BB less. I don't see it often though. The games SSHE describes you really only see in live play, not so much online anymore. Perhaps I'm becoming more of a medium stakes player then. 30% vpip is a good fish for me none of that 50+.

[fishyak]

But there is this basic problem. Not everyone can be on your right! The basic table description from Chesspain had some tighter (better) players on the right and your calling stations on his left. Now if the tight players are NOT TAGs, and are perfectly predictable, OK, I see the position issue. Raises would get them out. But with this much dead money rolling around, live, I do not leave this kind of table. Sooner rather than later, one of the fish will suffer from EWS, Empty Wallet Syndrome, and leave. I usually move into that just vacated seat if that leaves the new player on my right, just in case that person turns out to be difficult. I am not leaving an EV+ table with 4 cold callers.

[HoneyBadger]

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But there is this basic problem. Not everyone can be on your right!

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Of course they can be, it's a circle! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Oh, I probably wouldn't leave either. But I might, I hate the type of game, it's no fun for me, and when it's no fun I start to lose money.

(I just can't get the difference between loose and lose right... probably because it's the same thing in the end)

[fishyak]

Pots got so big that I had the odds to take those gut shot nut straight draws and a couple of them hit for monster pots. Also, people were trying to chase me down with ridiculous holdings. One gap and two gap flush draws turned into stealth bomb straights. It was one of the hotter short sessions I've had in a long time. The cards turns equally icy the next day.

[habsfanca11]

Chess, as requested BisonBison post is here:
BisonBison Position Post

[pfapfap]

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I normally WANT the turkeys on my left and the tougher players on my right.

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Out of curiosity, what's your general strategy for this? I like the turkeys on the right, tight players on the left. That way I can re-raise turkeys and get the reasonable players out of the way. On top of that, I have position on the turkeys and know if they're just limping along for the ride or really want to bet their hands.

[chesspain]

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I gotta admit, I am REALLY confused here...I normally WANT the turkeys on my left and the tougher players on my right. What am I missing? I REALLY don't see the problem. Maybe I need the problem described in REALLY SIMPLE terms, because I do not get it.

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As Bob mentioned, money flows clockwise at a table, due to position. Indeed, one generally wants loose players on the right, and tight players on the left. This way, one gets to either raise the loose players for isolation, or limp with speculative hands if enough players have already limped into the pot. On the other hand, since tight players don't play as many hands, you should want them on your left, so that you have more opportunities post-flop to have the button, even when you only limp preflop.

[fishyak]

The real issue for me is predictability. Calling stations are NEVER TAGs in disguise. Tight players can be. So occassionally this "turkeys on the left" set up means a tight player will now have the odds to come along for the ride and try to get that suckout when I tried to raise him out. But let's face it, how many people are you going to push around in what most people know are going to be multi-way pots? So if you are SURE that your tight players are rocks, NOT TAG's catching krap cards, then sure, have the tighties on your left. But I'd like to think I've played the role of presumed tightie when my cards sucked fumes and then punished people for a couple of orbits when some decent cards finally showed up. So if you are SURE that your characterization of your opponents is correct, then I agree. But I'd rather leave a little room for doubt in my characterizations and have my tighter and POTENTIALLY tougher opponents where I can keep a better eye on them on my right.

And live, I have much better options about seat changes whenever a fish goes belly up. I'll change seats often and try to put the new or unknown player on my right. If the fish are spewing and about to die, you will be able to move soon enough that any position disadvantage is temporary.

4 truly bad players is a GREAT table even by the low standards of live low limit play at Commerce. I am going to find a way to make that table my home until the fish have been filleted and broiled to perfection.