Do you change your raise amount when the antes kick in ?

[Dr1Gonzo]

Standard raising is in the area of 3-5BBs. I know a lot of people who stick with 3BBs al the time and I know some that vary it depending on position, some that vary it randomly.

However, do you vary it when the antes kick in? Sticking with a 3BB raise when the antes kick in still offers good odds for other players to call...especially in the BB.

[hencole]

I don't vary my raises. I find most players don't seem to realise they are getting better odds to call. If I notice that they do realise this, then I will up my usual raise. Part of the reason I find the raises still effective is to do with players generally having shorter stacks, so they are more likely to be in a fold or raise all in mode.

[1st and 15]

I'm glad this came up because this is a discussion I would really like to start in earnest on this forum. Below is a post I made about 2 weeks ago.


I know conventional wisdom is to start raising less than 3BB once antes start a comin. I however, have always fundamentally disagreed with this. For me, once antes start coming into play I start raising a little more than 3xBB, ~3.25 apx. I play a high frequency steal style PF and this betting system has worked very well for me. My reasoning is that it cuts down pot odds and discourages calls. Convince me that I am wrong and conventional wisdom is correct.

Note - I always raise the same amount PF if it is an open raise. No exceptions.

[Dr1Gonzo]

I wouldn't have thought the extra 0.25 BB would make that much difference to the pot odds. If you're going to do it then it would have to be at least 4xBB wouldn't it?
Of course, you are then risking more chips...

[Vraket]

I stick to 3x, and often move down to 2.5x unless I have a very big stack.

[Dr1Gonzo]

[ QUOTE ]
I stick to 3x, and often move down to 2.5x unless I have a very big stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a side note, it's interesting you say you reduce the raise amount as your stack gets smaller. I can see why but isn;t the theory that with a smaller stack you should get more aggressive ?

[CybrPunk]

Most of the more successful tournament players I've watched reduce their raise amount when the blinds become very large. The theory behind this is that you are risking less to win the same amount of chips, so as an example at 10k/20k if I raise to 55k as opposed to your standard 65k raise I'm going to induce folds just as often but I'm not going to be priced into calling shortstack shoves as often with mediocre holdings and I'm also losing less when someone does come over the top and I'm not holding a hand I can call with. Over the course of a few orbits this can make a huge difference in your chipstack if someone resteals against you even just a few times.

In addition, when you lower your raise size you can steal more frequently from a game theory perspective. Because you are risking a smaller amount of chips you need to win less often in order for those steals to be profitable in the long run. By risking a larger portion of your stack you need to win those pots uncontested much more frequently due to the fact that having to fold to a reraise is more costly once you've invested that additional 10k as I used in my example. If you really do start stealing more when it is late in tournaments then you would benefit much more by reducing your raise size rather than increasing it.

[Tiki]

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If you really do start stealing more when it is late in tournaments then you would benefit much more by reducing your raise size rather than increasing it.

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Only true if:

1. Your opponents are unaware of the concept of pot odds.
(ie. Your fold equity is indepenent of the size of your opening raise )

2. Your opponents are happy to be raped.

[Bullet_Dodger]

To all: This is a bit of a hijack. But some of the thoughts in hear bother me and I want to discuss this topic in a more broad sense. You should never be raising the same amount the entire tournament. This is a fundamental mistake. Raise size depends on a number of different variables, including:

1) The image of the table.
How has the table been playing? If they have been playing rather tight as a whole, you can get away with making 2-2.5x BB raises. If they have been rather loose, then raising the 3x bb amount will often be a futile attempt to protect your hand, and higher size raises are going to be warranted. As a general rule, the lower the buy in the more often your going to have to raise > 3xbb, and the higher the buy in the more often you can get away with 2.5x bb raises.
2) The image of specific players at the table.
If its folded to you on the Button, and you have two tight players in the blinds, you can get away with raising a smaller amount. However, if both players in the blinds are donks, you might want to raise a little more, along the lines of 4x the bb. You certainly do not mind more money in the pot when you have position and are much more experienced post-flop.
3. Stack Sizes
This is one that is usually not overlooked by 2+2'ers, and is discussed with great detail. First of all, your own stack size is extremely important. Usually when you find yourself in the <12bb range, your only move should be to push all-in. This is because you are forced to call a re-raise and you gain FE with the straight push. However, other stack sizes are just important. With a large stack already in the pot, you should be widening your raise range a big, and when he's behind you, you should be tightening that range. Also, with regards to short-stacks, you should be changing your raising selection a tad to have more hands that run well "Hot N Cold".
4. Hero’s Image/Ability
Normally, as a weaker player, you want to take advantage of the fact that getting all-in is a thorn in the side of many top-players. You should be more willing to get it all-in preflop, and take the odds you are given, rather than trying to make a standard raise and outplay them post flop.
5. Stage of Tournament/Stakes Change
As a general rule, you’ll be making smaller raises more often later in the tournament. This is obviously dependant on whether antes are present. Also, if the stakes will soon rise, you should avoid taking risks in marginal situations at the current limit, since there is a greater chance you can sneak into the money at the higher limit where the bigger stacks are more apt to bust.
6. Limpers.
With limpers already in the pot, you need to make bigger raises to devalue the great odds they are now getting. A standard belief is to raise 3x the bb +2x for any limper. This means, if the blinds are 5/10, and the first 3 players limp to you, you should be raising to 90. (20 + 20 + 20 + 30) When there are a ton of limpers in the pot you are going to making raises that seem ridiculous to many, but you have to devalue their odds.
7. Antes
Many people have different views on your raise size with regards to antes. I’m a little torn as well. Usually, later in tournaments you can get away with making smaller raises, as the blinds are a much bigger portion of players stacks then they once were. However, when antes are present, there is much more in the pot, and your giving them extremely good odds on their call. It all depends on the table, but in general, I make a slightly greater than 3x the bb raise.

Note: There are others I did not discuss, i.e. deception.

I think the problem with a lot of people is that they see that 3x bb has become the "standard" raise for 2+2'ers, and they raise this amount at any point in the tournament. You might get away with this for a little while due to the fact that your raising this amount for all your hands, and it's still hard for your opponent to read your holding, but there are going to be a lot of times in the tournament where raising a lesser or more amount is warranted and will show the most expected profit.

[registrar]

I really sat up and took notice of this post:

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Also, so many people are talking about bet sizing and information here -- why are so few looking at this from the opposite angle and thinking "hmm, maybe it's not such a good idea to open to 3x every single time"? NLHETAP puts it very well: the ability to choose how much to bet is the defining feature of no-limit betting structures, so why throw that ability out the window?




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