|
|
#41
11-22-2006, 02:16 AM
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Problems with Donkaments
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Default line is to c-bet every time you are checked to. [/ QUOTE ]I usually don't c-bet flops like K99, especially with a hand like AQ that can win unimproved. It really depends on villian, but there are some who will let me check it down, or take a check/check/bet line when they sense weakness. In the latter case, against the right board, I will check the flop and the turn with the intention of calling a raise on the end. This usually ends up costing me the same amount as a c-bet, shows the table that I'm not stealing with random garbage (which is not true, obv) when I showdown my hand, I'm not betting if I miss the flop (again not true), shows that I can't be bluffed easily, and extracts money from hands I'd have folded out on the flop with a c-bet. If the board starts developing a little on the turn and villain checks to me again, I might bet just to protect my hand. I definitely think taking the "c-bet every flop" line is exploitable. [/ QUOTE ] This has been my experience, too. While some opponents let you stab at the pot and steal, big-pair-pair seems to invite the trap in tournament play. I guess it depends on your read of the individual situation, but if a canny player check-calls I'm usually outta there. If I notice a villain doing this consistently, I'll make a point of paying to see what he's got, and I'll mix up raises and calls. If he's early and the big-pair-pair is something like, K-6-6, I'm more inclined to raise it up. If the pair is something like big-J-J or big-T-T, I'm more inclined to call or fold. 
|
|
#42
11-22-2006, 05:38 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Problems with Donkaments
[ QUOTE ]
these answers are going to be interesting for some, so: [ QUOTE ] 1. UTG + 1 raises to 1200. You are on CO with AQ, 66. Disucss. Fold to anyone under something like 18/10, fold 2. UTG raises to 1200. You are UTG + 1 with 99. fold 3. MP raises to 1600. You are in the CO with 88. shove most times 4. You are UTG with 33. fold 5. Button opens to 1450. You are in the BB with A9, KJ. shove quickly (planning to stop and go 6K into a 3K pot is lame), or make it 3K sometimes vs. better players (*now* you can stop and go, and yes, you should sometimes also do this with AA) 6. UTG +1 limps, MP limps. You are in the hijack with AQ of diamonds. raise to whatever looks good @ the table [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] i like what he said, except a lot of the time i'm gonna be raising the 33UTG; depending on table conditions obviously because it's a blindsteal kinda, but when called you still have a stack to cbet and if it gets multiway you can stay away unless you spike a set, in which case it'll be pretty disguised. anyway, thats just when the table is right; but it happens a lot, people play tight. oh, also this is more important with bigger antes, like on full tilt or UB. this might not have made much sense, my apologies.
|
|
#43
11-23-2006, 01:07 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Problems with Donkaments
[ QUOTE ]
Something that you didn't mention and no one picked up what are their stack sizes? That is very important the stack sizes behind you and the stack size of the opener. Most people who are playing 6-10 tourys forget to notice that. I try my best not to but obv sometimes I do. I will answer as if everyone has 8k at the table. Now my answers are more for 180s than mtts because this stage in a 180 is where the ROI comes from. This is the one time in the tourny I try to win every pot. 1. UTG + 1 raises to 1200. You are on CO with AQ, 66. Disucss. I shove them both, It's funny if I had to pick 1 of the 2 to shove as my hand I pick 66, yet it seems from other posts people rather have the AQ. lol 2. UTG raises to 1200. You are UTG + 1 with 99. Shove 3. MP raises to 1600. You are in the CO with 88. Shove 4. You are UTG with 33. 3bb if there is anyone with <10BBs call their shove con bet 4bb for 1 person c/r or c/c if you hit a set OOP. if 3+ people and at least 2 are to act behing you c/f on any flop you didn't get a set/gutshot with. 5. Button opens to 1450. You are in the BB with A9, KJ. I prob jam A9 and check shove KJ on almost any board. 6. UTG +1 limps, MP limps. You are in the hijack with AQ of diamonds. Jam there is 20% of your 8k stack in there PF You get called by worse hands a lot and any raise has to be 2k ish and leaves an akward stack size for postflop. Be content with adding 20% to your stack witout seeing a flop. Spots like that need to be played right. As for the ones where you don't know when to c-bet when most of effective stacks are in thre PF. Those are spots you should have open shoved most of the time. That or raise more or less PF. Stufy stack sizes like you would in cash games always plan out your bets on the future streets. You can always change and check or shove instead of spreading it out over 2 streets. But before you raise ask yourself these questions. Who behind me am I calling if they shove? What am I doing if they minraise/3x my raise? If the table is the type to shove or fold PF than you can open any 2 in later pos until caught. If you are folding to shoves they don't know if it was AJ or 72o. Based on how you answer the questions I proposed and some others I don't really want to post you can figure out ahead of time the best move. Also, I totally agree with your idea of peaking at the HJ, It should peak at CO and be the same % for but and SB when folded to, if not higher in SB. [/ QUOTE ]
|
|
#44
11-23-2006, 06:18 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Problems with Donkaments
[ QUOTE ]
Something that you didn't mention and no one picked up what are their stack sizes? That is very important the stack sizes behind you and the stack size of the opener. Most people who are playing 6-10 tourys forget to notice that. I try my best not to but obv sometimes I do. I will answer as if everyone has 8k at the table. Now my answers are more for 180s than mtts because this stage in a 180 is where the ROI comes from. This is the one time in the tourny I try to win every pot. 1. UTG + 1 raises to 1200. You are on CO with AQ, 66. Disucss. I shove them both, It's funny if I had to pick 1 of the 2 to shove as my hand I pick 66, yet it seems from other posts people rather have the AQ. lol 2. UTG raises to 1200. You are UTG + 1 with 99. Shove 3. MP raises to 1600. You are in the CO with 88. Shove 4. You are UTG with 33. 3bb if there is anyone with <10BBs call their shove con bet 4bb for 1 person c/r or c/c if you hit a set OOP. if 3+ people and at least 2 are to act behing you c/f on any flop you didn't get a set/gutshot with. 5. Button opens to 1450. You are in the BB with A9, KJ. I prob jam A9 and check shove KJ on almost any board. 6. UTG +1 limps, MP limps. You are in the hijack with AQ of diamonds. Jam there is 20% of your 8k stack in there PF You get called by worse hands a lot and any raise has to be 2k ish and leaves an akward stack size for postflop. Be content with adding 20% to your stack witout seeing a flop. Spots like that need to be played right. As for the ones where you don't know when to c-bet when most of effective stacks are in thre PF. Those are spots you should have open shoved most of the time. That or raise more or less PF. Stufy stack sizes like you would in cash games always plan out your bets on the future streets. You can always change and check or shove instead of spreading it out over 2 streets. But before you raise ask yourself these questions. Who behind me am I calling if they shove? What am I doing if they minraise/3x my raise? If the table is the type to shove or fold PF than you can open any 2 in later pos until caught. If you are folding to shoves they don't know if it was AJ or 72o. Based on how you answer the questions I proposed and some others I don't really want to post you can figure out ahead of time the best move. Also, I totally agree with your idea of peaking at the HJ, It should peak at CO and be the same % for but and SB when folded to, if not higher in SB. [/ QUOTE ] This is a pretty good post. I do most of this stuff, but it reminds me what is important and brings up some good points, thanks.
|
|
#45
11-28-2006, 11:06 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Problems with Donkaments
Just re-read this thread and decided to make a post expanding and elaborating on what I mentioned above - unexploitable profitable plays and why tournaments are NOT 100% luck. Something so very obvious and second-naturish to us PRIMARILY tournament players that it didn't really get mentioned in this thread - PUSHBOTTING. Maybe you know this already and I'm just re-stating the obvious, but if you know this already why would you be wondering if tournaments are 100% luck?... Anyhow. As stacks get shorter in relation to the blinds and as your stack gets under 10 BB's a number of hands become "pushable" from various positions with the following equation in mind : EV(push) = EV(FE)*(% you win the pot uncontested) + EV(your hand vs. calling range)*(% you are called) This is where the TON of ROI comes from (and for STT tourneys - this is where ALMOST ALL of ROI comes from). with 9BB's on the button, blinds have you covered and K9s in your hand you have an UNEXPLOITABLY PROFITABLE PUSH against ANY calling ranges of the blinds, because as their range shrinks you will be winning blinds more often and as their range increases your hand will fare better against it. BTW - J9o is a PROFITABLE push in this situation too. J2s - depends on how tight te blinds are... Top tournament players have a very good idea about pushing ranges (with the aid of many hours spent playing with SNGPT) and calling ranges. Mediocre tournament players have a good idea about pushing ranges but not so much calling ranges, most donkament players at low-meduim buyin levels have never heard of pushbot and have no idea of any ranges and end up folding WAAAAAY too much. So - every time you push and your opponent folds a hand he should be calling with - you gain. Every time your opponent fails to push a hand that's PROFITABLE to push in his spot - you gain. As long as you do not miss any push/fold spots (or I should say miss LESS spots than your opponents) - you win money. Top tournament players also recognize how and when changing conditions (such as bubble, FT bubble, payout structure etc.) will alter their opponent's pushing/calling ranges and will adjust BETTER AND FASTER than their opposition. This in itself IS a skill. Also - when I'm raising lets say 22+, A2s+, A7o+, and all suited connectors down to 54s in certain position I do this because it creates a nice stealing FREQUENCY, not because my hand is necessarily good, and not because I necessarily intend to call a re-steal shove with my hand. I usually know in advance (before I even raise) what I intend to do with my hand if any of the remaining players pushes or re-raises. Ok, rant over, need to do some work now...
|
|
#46
11-28-2006, 11:18 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Problems with Donkaments
Yea, most of this stuff is obvious with some good points. However, being good, borderline great at the pushbot places is very, very easy. I mean seriously, compare that to some skills necessary in cash games and there is simply no contest, there are 1,000 skills where you have to memorize ranges vs certain opponents and you need to take advantage of when you're ahead of his range because you have 10 times the decision factor in cash games. In tournaments, I can live with memorizing the situations to pushbot, or getting a feel for them depending on how the players are playing behind me obviously. This isn't something I'm having that many problems with at all.
[ QUOTE ] Also - when I'm raising lets say 22+, A2s+, A7o+, and all suited connectors down to 54s in certain position I do this because it creates a nice stealing FREQUENCY, not because my hand is necessarily good, and not because I necessarily intend to call a re-steal shove with my hand. I usually know in advance (before I even raise) what I intend to do with my hand if any of the remaining players pushes or re-raises. [/ QUOTE ] In regards to this, it is a pretty solid point actually and well taken, something I knew but needed to be reminded about. Thanks.
|
|
#49
11-28-2006, 12:45 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Problems with Donkaments
Just posted this yesterday in the "Beginners" forum - copy/paste verbatim (SNGPT was created by 2p2er Eastbay, BTW):
For more on it and how to do it - PLEASE download a FREE demo of SNGPT from http://www.sitngo-analyzer.com/ and go to Help--> Tutorial --> Blind Stealing 101 and read it and it all will (hopefully) become clear.
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
