Was Hachem being unethical? - Page 5

Ezcheeze · #41 11-23-2005, 03:59 PM

For the purposes of this discussion, I ask that everyone assume that Hachem actually wanted Watkinson to fold and was telling the truth with his statements and that Lee Watkinson actually had QQ and believed Hachem. This may or may not have been the case (In some of your opinions not in my opinion) but regardless, I want to know if you think that it was unethical for Hachem to do all of the following:

1.) Tell the truth about how strong his hand was (He did in fact have what he was making it clear he had)
2.) Tell Lee Watkinson he knew what he had.
3.) Tell Lee Watkinson to fold.

Also, keep in mind that I was there and my interpretation before any hands were turned up was that Hachem had KK or AA, Watkinson had QQ, and that Hachem was telling Watkinson to fold his QQ because he had that hand beat and it would be a big mistake (and his demeanor was implying it was a novice type bad mistake). I think that anyone with a similar grasp of the english language, a good knowledge of no limit hold em tournaments, and some experience playing/talking to Joe Hachem (All of which Lee Watkinson had) would have come to the same conclusion.

Shammu · #42 11-23-2005, 04:01 PM

I think you are almost out of line here, I don't see any problem with what he said, we watch stuff like that on TV all the time. I play live poker and I use these kind of things when I want or I don't want callers. Another thing, Ly did not think long from what I understand and pushed his chips fairly quickly, right? if he had taken his time I'm sure Hachem woulda said something as well. I just don't see any problems at all, and how do you know that Hachem and the other guy are friends? is the other guy from Australia too?

citanul · #43 11-23-2005, 04:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Because Minh doesn't speak english very well. He doesn't understand alot of the subtleties needed to accurately interprety what Hachem was implying with his statements+body language.

[/ QUOTE ]

but because you're at a poker table, there's a huge amount of 'is he lying? is he not lying?' that just naturally goes on. clearly if lee thought that it was so cut and dry that hacham was just telling the truth he would have folded his hand quickly. i don't see this as possible. i don't think it's possible that hacham came close to telling anyone who speaks fluent english he had AA or KK in this spot.

finally, i think you massively overestimate how poor an english speaker Minh is wrt these situations.

c

jcm4ccc · #44 11-23-2005, 04:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"You should have folded a long time ago."

[/ QUOTE ] If Hachem actually said this, then I think it was completely unethical, given that Hachem had KK.

For one thing, some players have already played and were not able to benefit from Hachem exposing his hand (basically). Suppose the original raiser had AA? Would that have been fair to him, a short stack hoping to double or triple up?

For those of you who see no problem with this: Would you feel the same way if the two players involved were Howard Lederer and Annie Duke?

Ezcheeze · #45 11-23-2005, 04:07 PM

Why am I out of line? I have told you what happened and asked your opinion of the matter and given my opinion. I haven't accused Hachem of anything other than what he did, what he told me his intentions were after the hand, and my interpretation of the situation.

J_V · #46 11-23-2005, 04:09 PM

Yes it is unethical and he and idiot for wanting a fold. It's not clear cut enough to warrant action, but it's certainly unethical.

Shammu · #47 11-23-2005, 04:14 PM

Simply because you are implying things that can be very hurtfull to the new champ's image. I am %1000 that he was not trying to save his friend, I don't hink they are friends, Hachem is new to all of us, I would be surprised to know if he played that much in the US before the WSOP, furthermore, do you think he would try to help anyone when there are hundred of thousands of dollars on the line? Few weeks ago, I was at the final table at a live tourny, the chip leader was sitting at the left of his friend which was the short stack, one hand the friend was thinking of going all-in and the big stack said "Watch out" so the friend folded and the big stack raised, that was out of line, but what happened with your table was just everyday poker stuff.

Ezcheeze · #48 11-23-2005, 04:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]

but because you're at a poker table, there's a huge amount of 'is he lying? is he not lying?' that just naturally goes on. clearly if lee thought that it was so cut and dry that hacham was just telling the truth he would have folded his hand quickly. i don't see this as possible. i don't think it's possible that hacham came close to telling anyone who speaks fluent english he had AA or KK in this spot.

finally, i think you massively overestimate how poor an english speaker Minh is wrt these situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

My question to you is ASSUMING I am right about Hachem's intentions and about how someone who speaks english well, has a decent amount of no limit hold em tournament experience and has played with and talked to Joe Hachem before would interpret Joe's actions, is what Joe said unethical.

I told you my interpretation of the situation. If you think I'm wrong then ok but that doesn't get us any closer or further to determining what is right and wrong in these tournaments.

Clearly you think It's ethical given your assumptions of what is actually going on. Would you tell me if you still think it's ethical assuming my interpretations are correct?

Ezcheeze · #49 11-23-2005, 04:18 PM

I'm not saying they are friends or that Hachem did what he did becuase they are friends. I have no idea if they are friends but what I do know is how I interpreted the situation and what Hachem told me afterwards. Also, I'd like to point out I still think what he did was wrong regardless of whether he has a friend in the hand or not. The problem is that allowing things like this to happens opens the doors for poeple who have no concern for what is right and wrong to take advantage of the situation.

citanul · #50 11-23-2005, 04:18 PM

if what you are saying is that he told his opponent who had cards in front of him, the truth about his hand while there were other people left to act who could not similarly take advantage of that information (or even probably not as their are 1) a player already in and 2) rules about telling the truth v lying in such spots) then yes, it is unethical, working from that standpoint. but that's only my decision because that's the only framework you want us to consider the action from.