Let's talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long) - Page 3

Bullet_Dodger · #21 11-20-2006, 08:05 PM

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wow, you played that hand absolutely terrible. I don't know what stakes this is at, but at that 2nd queen on the turn, most villians in most online donkaments don't fold Qx there

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Please read the thread before you post.

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I really disagree with your analysis of villian's play, he does not sound "tight passive" or a "nut peddler" to me, he sounds like a pure "level 1 thinking donk".

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I know Villain, and had been sitting with him for 3 hours.

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As played, what about a raise on the river? I think you played very passively here

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The other players were puzzled with the lack of a river raise as well. But given my read of him in the hand I thought I was WA/WB throughout, and the only hands that call me are KQ/QJ, and I believe he would have raised the flop with those two hands. Villain is not limping any worse Q here preflop. Although not the most important reason, I also got to see Villain's cards. (TT) Although Villain at the time did not like my play, he later admited that he would have folded the turn If I led and folded the river if I raised.

I'm not sure where your goin with that book crap so I cant comment.

NYWalker · #22 11-20-2006, 08:20 PM

I think I would ask myself on the turn (if I had AQ in this hand), regardless what on the river, do I fold my hand (AQo with QQ on the board) if villain pushes on the turn/river?

A_C_Slater · #23 11-20-2006, 08:53 PM

You call that a WA/WB?

No, no, THIS is a WA/WB

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP1 (t5155)
MP2 (t1630)
MP3 (t3115)
CO (t6488)
Hero (t2775)
SB (t3445)
BB (t1735)
UTG (t2255)
UTG+1 (t2565)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
6 folds, Hero raises to t600, SB calls t500, 1 fold.

Flop: (t1300) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t1300) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets t200, Hero calls t200.

River: (t1700) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets t600, Hero calls t600.

Final Pot: t2900

And this....

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button (t1500)
Hero (t1500)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
MP3 (t1500)
CO (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t20, 1 fold, MP2 calls t20, 1 fold, CO calls t20, Button calls t20, Hero raises to t160, 1 fold, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, CO calls t140, Button calls t140.

Flop: (t540) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t320, Button folds, Hero calls t320.

Turn: (t1180) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t1020 (All-In), Hero calls t1020 (All-In).

River: (t3220) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t3220

Assani Fisher · #24 11-20-2006, 11:53 PM

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The board in your example has a number of draws, including a flush draw and some potential straight draws. While they certainly have to be discounted because of your reads, that really isn't a drawless board. I'd be more inclined to view the hand as truly WA/WB if you at least put a rainbow flop out there.

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That was my first thought too- that it was very strange for him to refer to a 67Q with 2 hearts flop as having "no draws."

Edit: NM...i see that it was a typo now.

Assani Fisher · #25 11-20-2006, 11:55 PM

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Your turn analysis is weird then. Yes, you can now discount 88/99, but you're now ahead of AA/KK too. Maybe you're discounting those because he didn't reraise preflop, and that's fine. In any case, while I think your ranges are a little too tight for Villain in general, if that's your read, then you probably played the hand right since I'd say it fits mostly WA/WB. If you are discounting AA/KK because of preflop, and QQ isn't possible, and you're discounting a worse Q because he didn't raise the flop, that doesn't leave much in his range, just sets, JJ, and TT. I think, if anything, you are probably not giving enough credence to the possibility that you have a better queen, but I don't feel like doing the math to see if C/C is actually better than betting it out to maximize your value against Qx/JJ/TT.

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Yeah, I discounted KK/AA a good margin on the turn. Not all the way, of course, as many opponents will still play it this way.

The meat of the discussion I believe is on the river ... what is the best option. I believe its check-call, although I'd love to hear others refute this statement believeing that check-raise, leading out, or other options are more profitable.

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I think hes going to check behind you many times, and you'll miss out on a value bet. I prefer leading out on the river and then rethinking the hand if he raises. Your check/call of the turn and then leading the river may confuse him and I think he'll call that bet much more often than he'll make a bet himself if you check(assuming he has a hand like 99 or TT here).

Assani Fisher · #26 11-20-2006, 11:56 PM

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you're being too cautious.

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Ansky · #27 11-21-2006, 03:27 AM

bet turn bet river.

this isnt a good application of wa/wb this is just bad.