Let's talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)

[adanthar]

it's better live than online, yes. but be prepared for a lot of weird looks, and a big adjustment in your play, after he tables the fifth nuts and you table the third. and honestly, you should still be playing for stacks most of the time.

[AceLuby]

I don't understand the WB in this situation. We're afraid of 66,77,88 and that's it. While he could have those hands I'm at least making a small value raise on the river. With the range you have him on there are WAY more hands we are WA of than WB. I think we are leaving chips on the table by not raising that river.

[PrayingMantis]

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Villain is tight/passive.

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I can't see how the line you took is the best line (or even just a good line) against a normal tight/passive villain, especially in the case where he sees you as an aggressive player (however, his river bet is not really in line with a normal tight/passive: what does it mean exactly? Is he trying to rep a queen and make you fold a hand that is better than TT? Or exactly the opposite: some kind of a thin value bet? neither is in line with a tight passive). There's a very good chance he is paying you more with a hand like TT (and few others, of course) if you simply give him a chance to pay you more. Definitely more than he would pay if you let him and not you make the decision regarding how much to pay.

[Bullet_Dodger]

To everyone:

Yes, 66-88 is just 3 hands. However, a tight-passive player will rarley call the flop, lead out on the turn and the river without one of these or a hand almost as strong. I think it's awfly imaginitive to believe he'd make this play trying "represent" something or with a middle pair.

[AceLuby]

[ QUOTE ]
To everyone:

Yes, 66-88 is just 3 hands. However, a tight-passive player will rarley call the flop, lead out on the turn and the river without one of these or a hand almost as strong. I think it's awfly imaginitive to believe he'd make this play trying "represent" something or with a middle pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that's the case why are we c/c the turn and esp the river? The reason he's 'leading' on the turn & river is because you are letting him by checking. I think you give villain WAY too much credit for a hand and I think this isn't really a WA/WB situation because we aren't WB often enough. I'm still thinking that not value raising the river is leaving chips on the table.

[PrayingMantis]

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However, a tight-passive player will rarley call the flop, lead out on the turn and the river without one of these or a hand almost as strong.

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Well, you post a specific hand against a specific player, in which he did just that (well, not lead, but you meant bet when checked to, I assume. He can't lead). That's a bit strange if that's the hand you choose to use as an example for a good line against a "tight-passive", who will "rarely" do the exact thing he just did, isn't it?

[allenciox]

I really disagree with your analysis of villian's play, he does not sound "tight passive" or a "nut peddler" to me, he sounds like a pure "level 1 thinking donk".

I don't know how you can discount the possibility that he would call with a T9s or a 65s deep-stacked (100 BBs) in-position. Nut peddlers love this because of the times they hit their hands big and get paid off.

I agree with others that you played this poorly. You were fortunate that he played it even more poorly. Everything through the flop is reasonable. I think adanthar's play of check-raising the turn is your best bet --- sure, you might be beat here, but odds are you aren't --- and most donks are going to commit their whole stack with KQ,QJ,QT, or Q9 --- and no tight player is going to call your raise preflop with any lower kicker to their queen. Sure, he will then fold his non-set pairs below JJ, but normally you aren't going to get any more money out of them anyway. This was a fluke that he bet the river with TT, even most donks won't do that. Certainly, his turn bet screams donk as well --- he has no idea where he is at, and won't find out by betting here. His correct play deep-stacked is to call your flop bet (which may not mean anything), check behind on the turn, and probably call a small bet on the river (but certainly check if it is checked to him). If he plays it well, you win very little with your hand.

If you played it check-call on the turn, you HAVE to bet the river. Otherwise, 90% of the time that you have him beat it will be checked behind, especially if you don't think he is on a draw.

[AceLuby]

Thinking about this more I'm pretty sure villain is in a WA/WB situation here, not you... he played it badly because he didn't realize this.

[skier_5]

wow, you played that hand absolutely terrible. I don't know what stakes this is at, but at that 2nd queen on the turn, most villians in most online donkaments don't fold Qx there. Not only that, but like in this case, that 2nd queen gives some villians the green light to call you down with a pocket pair lower than queens too. This is what I see in your hand:

1. The queen on the turn does not improve your hand to beat any hands you are behind of, but given the nature of the board, sets/2p/overpairs are usually raised on the flop and that turn card makes it much much more likely that you can get villians stack from a worse Qx. Yes, sometimes you run into a monster, but more often than not you are leaving money on the table by not playing it accordingly.

2. Recently, I found I was having trouble with my overpairs and getting stacked a lot (cash games) and I ultimately decided that I was lead/leading too much oop because it looks so strong, so I started stackadonking (lead flop, c/shove turn) and they are doing better for me (though last 12kish hands only), but in that case this line gets called by tptk sometimes, here, you are never getting called by a worse than a Q if you c/r the turn, adn checking the turn allows him to completely control the pot, which you don't want. So bet the turn. Lots of villians will decided that their pp is good, and Qx never folds, and AA/KK usually call at least one more bet. so bet

3. At the river you should have set yourself up for an open shove. Way too many hands you beat call a shove (Qx) to not do other wise. Seriously, this isn't the time to induce a bluff on the river.

stop being so weak tight.

[NYWalker]

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This is such a turn CR (or sometimes river bet) that it's not funny, and you left a ton of chips on the table vs. most of his hands.

This isn't even WA/WB. It would be if you held jacks (you see how durron says 'obv JJ'? That's because that's the hand your line makes perfect sense with.) With AQ, yes you lose to exactly two boats, but he is so much more likely to stack off to you with KQ, QJs, occasionally even aces etc. that you should be calculating optimal bet sizes for his entire stack on the flop, or at least the turn, easily.

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First off, on the turn, I still think I'm way ahead or way behind. Given Villain's description, he is not calling the turn check-raise with a majority of the hands I have beat. This includes 88-JJ, and a good portion of the time he is laying down KK/AA. I didn't lead out because If raised I don't know whether he's raising with a Q I have beat or a monster ... and I obviously have showdown value. I discounted KQ/KJ slightly because Villain would almost always raise with this type of hand, trying to see where he was on the flop. If he had raised the flop, this is the type of hand I would put him on and I would have obviously jammed.

note: this is not an online donkament. this is a live $100 tournament in which the Villain is tight/passive. (not extremley passive, but passive)

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As played, what about a raise on the river? I think you played very passively here.

The following may be a different spin from the topic, but I suggest you consider:

For this situation (Big Hands for Big Pots), Sklansky and Miller's green Theroy and Practice book (the first part - manipluate the pot size) clearly describes how to extract villain's entire stack into bet... 2-chunk or 3-chunk options.

In such hand, either you stack off him or he stacks off you. Especially, on the turn, you would assume villain actually had a hand to go allin with (AA/KK/KQ/QJ). If villain is tight/passive, use the 3-chunk option and release the bad news on the river; if he's aggressive, the 2-chunk option will do it.

If our trip Qs beaten by full boat, it's our luck. It's still better than a bad beat.