Two strategic Full-Ring issues - any consensus here?

[zal3]

I’ve been searching through this forum for advice. Two key strategic issues often arise that seem to be controversial.

I don’t have the stats to prove anything – but many of you guys surely do.
I’m thinking only in terms of FULL RING (8-10 players).
I would LOVE to hear what strong players think about these issues.


Here goes:

When is limp-reraising big pairs from EP more +EV than raising?
Obviously, some aggressive players are required at the tables.
-And if conditions dictate that AA/KK best be played for a limp, what other hands do you also limp or raise from early position?

Some older poster showed PT stats that AA/KK were hugely more profitable when limped from EP than when openraised.

I've seen classic threads by ML4L and Matt Flynn on this. There are also more recent ones at the small stakes forum. But they are quite disparate...

When are small PPs (22-44) NOT profitable to open-limp when first in?
These play well in limped pots – unless there are 5+ limpers (risk of higher sets or megadraws). And often do OK after a limp-call with decent implied odds.


The two issues are interrelated. If you limp-reraise big hands you also "protect" small PPs that are hugely +EV in limped pots.

Conventional wisdom has it that there is a general trend to reduce openlimping at higher levels. This is obviously correct for marginal hands like Axs etc that can't stand a raise. But for "better marginals", however, this must be very dependent on stack sizes as well.

Hope to hear some opinions - especially on the limp-reraising part!

Thanks,
Zal3

[DJ Sensei]

I havent limpreraised much in the past, but I used to play at a rather passive site. Switching to party soonish, probably will do it more often at the right tables.

L-RR should work best with a few very aggro players on your left, and a lot of calling station types on your right. Ideally, what you want out of it is a raise and several callers, so you can pop it up nicely, get a big chunk of the stacks in preflop, and kill their implied odds.

As far as small PP's, I feel like in early position, 22-44 are pretty much equivalent to 55-99. You're not gonna win the pot without a set, unless the flop bricks and you can take it down against whiffed high cards. I also think that they're always profitable to open limp first in, but I imagine theres an argument to the contrary. Also, I feel as though small/medium PP's play better in raised pots. Its tough to get a whole stack in with a set in an unraised pot, but in a raised pot, its bigger by the flop AND somebody probably has a hand they like a lot. Obviously, they're still +EV in limped pots, but the equity comes more from the fact that your hand is probably best, while the equity in raised pots is primarily implied odds.

[zal3]

To those who often go for the limp-RR from EP:

Can you open ANY hands profitably, if you most often limp with AA/KK?
/Zal3

[Kilillan]

I don't like limp-reraising with AA/KK. There's the possibility it can get a bunch of callers, and you could lose a big pot. And limp/reraising with AA doesn't hide your hand particularly well.

I will, however, limp-reraise with small pairs against aggressive players. Simply because it looks like aces.

[JFM]

I don´t L RR at al in a full ring. Someone always have something good egough to call or raise you with. It dosen´t rime with my usuall aggresive style. If i do it i´m doing it at low-level against poor players that only looks at their on holdings.

As for low PP´s i fold up to 66,77 UTG around 70% of the time. The other 30 i´m raiseing. Since you don´t know what will happen i don´t like limping and find my self agains either to few nor too manny players when the flop comes. And if i get raised i still have to akt first if i call. Why i started playing this way was
1. You disguise your hand
2. Very few players will reraise you without a stong hand
3. You´re leaving yourself a good chance to win pots even if you miss your card.

I use this strategi at 2-4 and 3-6 NL games and have increased my EV from UTG with almost a dollar($0.67/hand).
If it suits everybody i don´t know, i make more money in 6 max. I would like to hear what a you full ring experts have to say. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[AdamBragar]

I like limp reraising with AA and KK in EP for a variety of reasons.

First of all, it sucks to play a pot with AA or KK OOP against a bunch of callers. I'm not going to open raise to some absurd amount (over 5 x BB) from EP, so if I raise to 5 x BB and get 2-3 callers (or more), I've got to usually look to take down this pot on the flop or probably fold to agression. Limp reraising almost always allows me to either take down the pot preflop or play a heads up pot and now I've charged a player a decent amount to see a flop.

At most levels in mid-stakes NL, players are either going to assume that you have AA or KK or they will think this is a steal. I've found enough players think that you are stealing that I get paid off with the limp reraise a bunch. However, if you are worried that players are paying enough attention that they will be like, ah, player xxxx only reraises with AA or KK, then I'd vary it up.

If you use the assumption that players put you on AA or KK when you limpreraise, then theoretically, you will win a lot of pots with 27o if you limpreraise and then bet the flop. I have never limpreraised with 27o or other junk because there is a limit to how much I should limp reraise (that limit being pretty low). If I limpreraise with 27o, there are not going to be many flops I hit, so if someone calls my flop bet, likely I'd be done with the hand. I think the problem with limpreraising with low or midpockets is the same thing. You need to hit a set (which will happen 1/8 times) to continue with the hand after a flop bet (unless you hit a set on the turn). I'd rather limp with these pockets/call a reasonable raise and try to hit a set rather then pumping up the pot first with them. Pockets have a lot of value in any position because when you hit a set, you can feel pretty comfortable. I do like to limpreraise with suited connectors. Suited connectors don't play so well in a limped or raised pot (if you are doing the calling) oop. However, if you limpreraise maybe 2/5 of the time with suited connectors, then when you see a flop, there can be a lot of possibilities. If you limpereraise with a suited connector, the flop can bring possible straight draws, flush draws or random two pairs. Most of the time when you bet the flop you will get a free turn/cheap turn card (I rarely see people jam the flop after calling a limp reraise).

That's pretty much my opinion on the limpreraise for now.