big bit pot with increasingly worse cards falling

Guruman · #1 11-19-2006, 03:30 PM

wpex 3/6

player 5 in this hand is a known 2+2r who is aware of who I am. Had these notes on him:
chkrs low prd flp w Ahi ovrs
donk btm pr on flp

I had notes on playr 3 at the time, but I didn’t look at them mid-hand. I kind of figured the more important range was the Bro’s, and plyr 3 would let me know pretty quickly whether or not I was beaten.

***** Hand history (v1.2) *****
Hand ID 72728673
$3/$6 Texas Hold'em (Split Limit) - 14:01:00 19/11/2006 ET
Table 'Quads (6 Max)', 6 seats max, Real money
Seat 0 is the button. Small Blind $1, Big Blind $3
ThGuruman: Small Blind ($1)
Player 2: Big Blind ($3)

** Dealing Down Cards **

Dealt to ThGuruman: [K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]

Player 3: raise ($6)
he has a reasonable but not rockish range from there.

Player 4: fold
Player 5: raise ($9)
I’m assuming a standard 2+2ish threebetting range vs an ep raiser. probly pretty tight and lots of pairs in it.

Player 0: fold

ThGuruman: call ($8)
I decided that capping wasn’t going to have to be automatic in this spot. If I’m up against a big pair then I’m in a world of hurt, and I don’t necessarily want initiative in a pot this size with a hand that may need to catch to be good, so I just call. I have no idea what my calling range really looks like here (because I’m just never really in this situation), but it might be very very narrow.

Player 2: fold
Player 3: call ($3)

** Dealing Flop **

Community cards: [A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]

ThGuruman: bet ($3)
I really had two options here, check raise and go from there, or lead out and hope plyr 5 has an ace and raises. I figured that I didn’t want plyr 3 to be faced with two cold until after he’s put one in, so I led out.

Player 3: call ($3)
Player 5: raise ($6)
ThGuruman: raise ($6)
well that all worked out pretty well. I expect to play the rest of this big pot headsup with tptk from here.

Player 3: call ($6)
until plyr 3 calls. He got huge odds, so he could still have a wide range, and I don’t think any weird sets are going to slowplay from here. a scared 2pr could do this though, so I knew to tread lightly.

Player 5: call ($3)
when 5 calls I know I have him beaten.

** Dealing Turn **

Community cards: [T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]

ThGuruman: bet ($6)
this is standard with initiative, and because all kinds of draws had huge odds on the flop.

Player 3: call ($6)
Player 5: call ($6)

I think I’m in the lead here, but this board and the action is becoming worrisome.

** Dealing River **
Community cards: [8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]
ThGuruman: Fk! Now what?

Scotty. · #2 11-19-2006, 03:42 PM

I would just go ahead and Check/Fold that. The only hands you are beating now are AQ with no club, and KK with no club. The KK is very unlikely given the flop/turn action, unless your opponent is tilting badly. Also, given the amount of strength you have shown, there is no way a 2+2er would expect you to lay down your hand for 1 bet on the river - he would be betting for value.

Just re-read the hand and realized Player 3 is also still there. That makes it that much easier IMO. I don't think anyone is bluffing no club into 2 players here ever.

Veron · #3 11-19-2006, 03:43 PM

I cap pre-flop. I'd like to get it HU w/AKo because our hand could very well be ahead and dominating. Also it looks much stronger that calling.

I like your flop and turn play.

the river is a terrible card. I would check and see what happens. The pot is too big to bet/fold, especially since player 5 is a 2+2'er who knows who you are. This increases the change he makes a bluff raise in this big pot when you bet and player 3 folds.

When the action goes check/bet/raise you can easily get away from your hand. When it goes check/check/bet, we have to call. When it goes check/bet/call.. I'm afraid we have to fold too [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Guruman · #4 11-19-2006, 05:00 PM

that'd be a huge fold there Scotty.

what happens to our poor cat when we fold a win or a chop? I really feel like we only have to beat one player here.

Unguarded · #5 11-19-2006, 06:48 PM

Pre-flop: I agree with Guru's call. There's not much value in the raise (if any) and we get the chance to see whether player 3 caps, which based on Guru's read, would be a very valuable piece of information. I also agree that having the initiative is a pain in the ass in this spot, though that's probably more of a personality/style thing.

Flop: I think the C/R is a better idea. When the 2p2er 3-bets PF, there are basically 2 situations on the flop. 1) You're crushed. 2) Or more likely, you're way ahead. On the other hand, player 3 could hold some weaker hands like QT/QJ/JT/KQ/KT (perhaps with a backdoor flush draw) that you would really like to face 2 bets. By betting out, you attacked the wrong player imo.

River: I agree with the check-fold. Neither of your opponents should be inclined to bluff, since it's 3-handed and they both sound intelligent. I even have a tough time calling this a big laydown... it's not like you have AJ or a set. I sort of lost track of the number of bets in the pot, but you prolly need to be good around 7% of the time or so. I doubt that's the case.

Jiggymike · #6 11-19-2006, 06:49 PM

Check and see what happens...I think you have to call pretty much anything unfortunately. If weak player bets and good player raises, he could jsut be trying to drive you out without having a club. I think a call on his part is much scarier. But call anyhow.

Scotty. · #7 11-19-2006, 07:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
that'd be a huge fold there Scotty.

what happens to our poor cat when we fold a win or a chop? I really feel like we only have to beat one player here.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are behind virtually his entire range that he will bet here with. I just don't see our villain here 'bluffing' with AQ here that often at all. I certainly wouldn't do it anyways. It's been a while since I've played limit, so maybe I'm a little rusty with applying reads and the whole "don't fold for one more in a big pot" mantra.

Also, why do we only have one player to beat? Why is it so unlikely that Player 3 has a club, or any other hand that beats you? On this board, your hand is quite weak.

YertleTurtle · #8 11-19-2006, 09:49 PM

I definitely cap preflop. I think gaining initiative is good with a small chance of getting it HU. This raise may increase the chance that a medium pocket pair will fold after an unfavorable flop (even when you miss) and there is a good chance you have someone dominated so I cap for value.

As for the river - there is often inherent protection in the pot being multi-way. If you bet you can't beat a player who calls and you can't call a raise so I don't see any value in this. Check-fold in my opinion - your hand is weak by the river.

YT

parkinson · #9 11-20-2006, 01:07 PM

as the villian in this hand i can say that the call really puzzeled me, and made the hand very tough to play for me. especialy since i knew he knew i was a 2p2'er (lurker mostly) me 3-betting a EP raiser must seem fairly strong, yet i get called, in a so far 3-way pot with the BB still to act. really didnt know what to make of it.

Guruman · #10 11-20-2006, 01:32 PM

yeah, like I said in the OP - my range is pretty small there. probly exactly AKo and AQs. I can't think of any pps that I'm not capping or folding. I may call KQs there if I think one of youse guys is a spewmonkey.

On the river player 3 valuebet a rivered one card flush [7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]], parkinson called with AK no flush, and I overcalled with AK no flush. Its true that my hand is ridiculously weak, but I felt that I had parkinson beaten and wasnt willing to risk a misread on player 3 getting 100-1 or whatever that was at the end. If I had folded and plyr 3 had AQ no flush and wanted to get fancy I would have damage my computer and been unable to make this post initially.