Poker Etiquette Question

[rageotones]

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Unlike you, I often have to play in rooms where dealers too often can't read the board. Not due to a mistake, but because they haven't taken it upon themselves to learn the game. There's no excuse for that.


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There is no excuse for that, but there is also no incentive for the casino to improve if they have games with dealers that can't read hands.

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I understand and I'm actually very tolerant of dealer mistakes, because I realize they are human. It just sounded to me like you were putting the onus on the players at the table to read the hands. I agree they should help on the rare occasion a dealer makes a mistake, but I also think such mistakes should be just that... Rare! It is part of the dealer's job to know which hand wins.

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I do believe that ultimatel it falls on the players ot be certain the pot is being pushed the right way. Every place I have been involved with righting rules and procedures I have pushed for language that says "The dealer shall assist in the reading of hands." Of course the dealer should be able to read the hands, but ultimately it is the players' game and up to the players to make sure things are done correctly.

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well put. also see casino's attitude in this post

[Lestat]

<font color="blue">Of course the dealer should be able to read the hands, but ultimately it is the players' game and up to the players to make sure things are done correctly. </font>

Well then let me ask you this, and I'm not just trying to be sarcastic...

What reason do you think we as poker players have to support the existence of your poker room by paying a rake and lion's share of your dealer's salary in the form of tokes?

I'm speaking mainly of the recreational low limit player who might not be all that familiar with the game and is just showing up to have some fun? You don't think he/she deserves to have a dealer protect him from his/her own ignorance? To make sure the game is fair and the rules are being followed?

This is what gets me a little irked. This attitude of not wanting to take responsibility for your own employees. When I ran my own company, we took responsibility for our employee's mistakes. We didn't put the onus on our customers to police our staff and make sure they were doing their job correctly. Now I understand that you can't be responsible for the amounts of pots, but your patrons ARE paying to play in your room. They should watch out for their own good, yes... But they should also be able to expect that your personell is well trained enough and competent enough to ensure their best interest.

[RR]

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What reason do you think we as poker players have to support the existence of your poker room by paying a rake and lion's share of your dealer's salary in the form of tokes?

I'm speaking mainly of the recreational low limit player who might not be all that familiar with the game and is just showing up to have some fun? You don't think he/she deserves to have a dealer protect him from his/her own ignorance? To make sure the game is fair and the rules are being followed?

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The dealer doing their job does not relieve a player of their responsibility to protect themselves at all time. It is possible for multiple people to have over-lapping repsonsibilities. I think a similiar example is if you go to the bank to get some money. The bank teller has a responsibility to count our money accurately, but you still have a responsibility to mak esure you have the right amount before you leave. The only way for you to get the wrong amount of money is if you both fail to meet your responsibilities.

As far as who is responsible for reading the hands. You have the player that has been studying his hand the whole time and the dealer who is just now looking at it for the first time. In this split second he is looking at it he also has people throwing away there cards and maybe someone trying to talk to him about a seat change or some new cards etc. Who is in the best position to state what the cards are?

Ulitimately the players are paying for the dealer's assistance in keeping the game running smoothly, but it is the player's game.

[Lestat]

Well when you put it that way (especially the banking example), it makes sense. It's good for people like me to get the perspective from experienced floor people like you who look at things from the other side of the fence. While I've been playing for years, I only know poker from the player's side of the cards.

[Rottersod]

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First they came for the fish and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a fish...

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Well, that ends this thread for me.

[chesspain]

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Then the all in player threw his hand open with a frustrated sigh and shaking his head, showing AQ, indicating a fold.

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Unfortunately, this description is somewhat vague. If he splayed the cards wide open, for all to see, then "cards speak." If he flashed them, and prepared to muck, then he didn't table them.

In the latter instance, where the cards were not tabled, the rule is "one player to a hand," and it is wrong for anyone to say anything to this guy if he wants to muck.

However, if it is the former situation, where the cards were esentially tabled, then "cards speak," and anyone at the table who realizes that he has the winning hand but elects to remain silent and allow the pot to be shipped to the wrong player is a royal douche and a suspected cheater (regardless of whether or not the silent player will personally profit). There is no excuse for allowing someone to be cheated out of a pot at showdown...period.

FWIW, I can't believe the number of responses to this thread where people said "Cards speak...but I'ld keep my mouth shut."

[grdred944]

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I don't believe it is an ethical consideration. If you are playing a football game and your guy is running down the sidelines, scores a touchdown but you clearly saw that he stepped out of bounds would you tell the ref that your own teammate stepped out of bounds? Absolutely not and no one would fault you for not saying anything. The refs get paid to track that and the dealers get paid to push the pot to the winning hand. Period.

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So if a clerk hands you change for a $100 instead of the $10 you gave her, you don't say a thing. Nice guy.

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No, I don't have the dillema that the other poster mentioned. I am very selective at the poker table when it comes to chiming in. If something happened along the lines of what you used as an example I would (and have) point out the error right away.

[grdred944]

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the dealers get paid to push the pot to the winning hand. Period.

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"The dealers shall assist in the reading of hands."

Everyone that sits at a poker table has an obligation to police the game and see that the pot is pushed to the winner.

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I have no such obligation. We can debate whether it is an ethical dillema but I am only obliged to follow the house rules. If I decide not to say anything re. a hand I am not involved that is certainly not a matter of not living up to an obligation.