TPTK: A Realization

[orange]

Alright, after getting stacked twice yesterday with TPTK, I've finally learned a costly (but very vital) lesson in my poker career.

Too often will I read 'raise flop shove turn' or whatever w. TPTK. This is generally a decent line vs. donkeys, those who have very wide betting/calling ranges (where they will stack off with TPNK, flush draws, etc).

Here is a hand where I don't think I should have been stacked: Villan is a TAG, 18/12.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
orange: $200
UTG+1: $155.60
CO: $214.30
Button: $519
SB: $298.50
BB: $242.70

Pre-flop: (6 players) orange is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">orange raises to $7</font>, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($28, 4 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets $22</font>, <font color="#cc0000">orange raises to $70</font>, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises all-in $235.7</font>, <font color="#cc0000">orange calls all-in $123</font>.
Uncalled bets: $42.7 returned to BB.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($414, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $414)


River: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($414, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $414)


Results:
Final pot: $414
<font color="#ffffff">BB showed Qd As</font>
<font color="#ffffff">orange showed Ks Ac</font>

Too often will I go into the robotic modes of thinking, where there is a standard line and I should take it. I fail to take into account what my opponent's hand range is. In this particular spot, my line is fairly good vs. a bad player. The bad player will stack off with Ax/hearts/etc, and sometimes even worse. Instead, I fail to realize that my villan is a TAG until it is too late, and I do not accurately weigh his hand range.

For instance, in this particular AK hand, what hand could he possibly have that is leading into many others, including the PFR? The b/3b is a popular line for TAGs with monsters. here is an example .

Instead of stacking off in this poorly played hand, I should have taken a moment and thought about it a little more. His hand range, IMO, is a set or AQ. I beat very little in this spot.

So, maybe this is just the idle ramblings of a player who has just learned something. Take a moment and think about your opponents before acting instead of just going through the same old routine.

[GtrHtr]

I agree and learned a similar lesson the hard way a week ago or two and still do this from time to time. I think your concerns on this board should be: 1. AQ. 2. flush draw. 3. set.

Its hard to back off the aggro and call the flop and then fold the turn to more pressure. anyway...

I think the hard part for me while I'm in the hand is applying (in my mind) pf ranges to post flop reads in the hand. If you apply what a likely range is, this hand becomes easier to play.

I did fold KK on a non A flop yesterday, so I've got that going for me.

[terp]

raising this flop against a TAG type is going to allow both of you to play perfectly, since most of these guys don't have the sac to shove a draw here. however, he's letting you play perfectly and you called anyway...

i'm not sure what you mean about preflop being whatever? you raised UTG and that seems like the only practical action you could have taken.

[fsista]

Wait, you open raised pf if I read this correctly.

If I had rred pf I can't fold this, but seeing that you only had one open raise, I believe you should bet/fold this flop. AQ is very likely for him, as well as 33 or some combodraw. Thing is, he ain't folding to your ai and you don't have +ev vs his range.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
PF is whatever, I have been RR-ing a fair amount at this table and decided to call this time. Villan is a TAG, 18/12.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand. You raised pf.

I agree that when a TAG cold-calls you here, it's more likely to be a set than a flush draw (or an ace worse than AQs). So with a strong enough read, I probably fold flop.

[orange]

sorry, i initiaally posted another hand and decided it wasnt the bet to present.

[thedustbustr]

[ QUOTE ]
Too often will I read 'raise flop shove turn' or whatever w. TPTK. This is generally a decent line vs. donkeys, those who have very wide betting/calling ranges (where they will stack off with TPNK, flush draws, etc).

[/ QUOTE ]
unless they're really stacking off with flush draws (in which case, wow) - you realize that you have three streets to get the money in, and you will have better information on future streets to make a decision about getting the money in, so why are you in such a hurry?

[ThePortuguee]

Yeah. Call seems good to me on this flop. It's going to be very hard for him to lead into you on that flop, then, after being called, bet teh turn again with a worse hand. If checked to on the turn it's an interesting question. I guess you make reasonable bet and fold to raise.


thats a sick line to take with a FD for him, haha.

[hakeem]

[ QUOTE ]
raising this flop against a TAG type is going to allow both of you to play perfectly, since most of these guys don't have the sac to shove a draw here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually disagree with this statement completely, but would probably fold this flop anyway.

[Grunch]

Against an opponent with similar tendancies as who you describe, I like calling the flop &amp; raising/betting a bricky turn. The challenge is knowing what to do on a scary turn, but you have to choose your errors: are you going to going to err on the side of getting max value/max protection, which leads you to getting stacked frequently with a second best hand? Or are you going to err on the side of committing your chips when your equity situation &amp; you'r opponent's range is more well-defined, which leads you to sometimes folding the best hand?

To me it comes down to picking getting your money in bad too often vs. not getting your money in good often enough. It's not a question of risk-tolerance for me; I have a very high tolerance for risk. But in each case, one choice has a higher EV than the other. More often than not, my brain tells me the higher-EV choice is to wait for the turn.