Bots in PartyPoker's 6-max Limit games?

[NoMeansYes_]

Eventually computers will be able to think and live more optimally then humans, so thinking that in this generation that computers cannot win in poker is naive. I don't know how big the bot problem will become in the next few years, but be sure they will improve a lot.
Hopefully, poker sites will enforce against bots more because they will become more known about as the problem rises. When the poker scene in Europe and maybe Asia explodes and sites become more reliable like retail online sites, bots will probably have a harder time getting around the system, but it will always be a cat and mouse game.

[jukofyork]

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They could patrol around the tables and actually make an attempt to find them.

They can identify players that have been on for extremely long sessions and make sure they are human.

If a bot is playing for 80 hours straight then can't they at least look into it?

If a bot takes some breaks in there to try to counter-act it but has still played for some in-human amount of time like 75 out of 80 hours then it is worth looking into.

Yes, there is the risk of ticking off some crazy fish who just happened to play for an insanely long amount of time. But most winning players who play marathon sessions will understand the need to be pro-active on this stuff.


This is assuming the sites do it the right way and approach the player professionally about it.
This is different from the way many sites seem to have developed of just locking/freezing accounts and not telling anyone why.


If the sites would confiscate funds in the obvious situations that would help a lot as well.
I suspect a significant percentage of the current botters would be intimidated against continuing or trying it in the first place if they hear of someone losing a ton of money after getting caught.

Redistributing it to some of the other players should be considered also of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

micro,

try to think like a site operator for a moment.
your business model is tied to rake generating chairs.

how motivated will you be to spend money to stop those
rake generating chairs?

hmmm ...
spend money to increase rake generating chairs
... or
spend money to decrease rake generating chairs

if you as a player generate x amount of rake per day and
a pro botter generates 10 times that much at the same limit
then i can assure you that what the pro botter wants is 10
times more important than what you want. especially since
the pro botter has almost zero support cost because they
dont ever complain.

about the only thing the site really wants from us is to
appear to be human so that the anti-botters will be appeased.

ray

[/ QUOTE ]
Why would they want to sacrifice their long term profit for a short term gain?

Juk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[SumZero]

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I read that somebody suggested that you would get a pop up that shows i.e. a car and then you get 3 choices like a) book b)car c)plane. Unless the options are in a lot of languages this idea is not good, I know people playing on Party who do not even know what book is in English. However, couldn't they pop up a picture of i.e. a car and then you would get an option of choosing between 3 different pictures of which one is of a car (different angle, different color of course). I think it would take computer programs decades to beat this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any challenge program you can think of doesn't work. The bot programmers (or whatever else you are trying to protect against) can beat this easily. The clever way I've heard of late is you have a site where you show free porn to people who answer the questions for you (I.e., you forward the challenge to other people). There are lots of people at any one moment looking for free porn and if they have to match a car picture or type a hard to read word/number sequence that is pretty trivial to get someone else to do for you.

[stigmata]

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i kind of stopped reading when you appeared to ignore
these security issues and aren't willing to discuss them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I figured you weren't reading what I said.

What the [censored] are you talking about "security issues?". There is really no way to stop a determined botter.

[ QUOTE ]
just say this i know you want to

"ray i want you to trust me"

ray

[/ QUOTE ]

I honestly have no idea what your talking about, but you kinda seem not-right-in-the-head.

[cyclonus]

for now there isnt much to do against bots who play just simple ABC poker. But when the bots get better an start heavily working with oponnent stats, the best thing would be getting rid of all stats like hand histories.

[lol_variance]

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Here is the funniest thing I've seen all day. The creator of the bot is a poster here on 2+2.
I guess I need to get one of those bots. It looks like 2+2 doesn't have a problem with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

the astute readers (and most of 2p2 posters are) will have already worked out that you are a user and poster on the forum in all likelyhood.

long answer:

this means that you have already got one of those bots - are probably running it as we speak (hopefully at a loss)

Like you Ray is a new poster - I don't have a problem with *Anyone* posting on 2p2 (even bot users) - it is after all a public forum.

If Ray posted material on 2p2 that linked to sites that promote bot use (without prior moderator approval) he would most likely get banned and his posts deleted as 2p2 as far as I know take a very anti-bot stance.

I think it's better for all concerned to talk about things like this that effect the short term profitability of posters and the long term viability of internet poker in general.

Banning disussions like this imo would be very shortsighted - and you are seriously misinterpreting things if you think by allowing Ray to post on a public forum the owners and moderators of said forum are endorsing or condoning bots in any form.

short answer:

grow up and quit trolling.

(astute 2p2 posters might find the thread entitled "PBWC announcement posted on 2+2 forum" which is posted on the cheaters' forums (that I can't bring myself to link to - google it) interesting reading - I wonder which of the posters there is you "lol_variance"? )

[/ QUOTE ]

For the record, all new posters are not "trolls" and I do not use any bots except for PT. I don't even know why I bothered to sign up to this site knowing that all new posters get attacked or are labeled as trolls. I was simply pointing out to those who may not have known that the bot creator posts here. I will not be put on the defensive by you or anyone else here. For all I know, you are a running bots. Just because people have high post counts here doesn't make them upstanding citizens in the poker community in my book. History has proven that here. Good day sir.

[Jake (The Snake)]

Peter,

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An argument for "game of open information" isn't enough, cause vast amount of simulations can cause this lack of info close to "completely enough" i believe. If so - online and live poker will be dead, cause once it's real online - more people will (as already do for some house games) will bring miniaturized devices with them.

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Although I agree that bots are a huge threat to destroying online poker, I do not think I would say the same for live poker. I think stopping the miniaturized devices would not be too difficult, although I could have the wrong impression about how they work. In any case, the end of online poker would have a huge effect on live poker.

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But i also understand that we cannot defend against bots-infesting online and live. This is a law of progress i guess. AI can make a lot of things better than a human today and will make a lot morethings better than a human tomorrow. We can only make this progress slower like oil companies force invention of new kinds of fuel to stay as slow as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Although I am more pessimistic than most, I am not yet convinced that this is inevitable. Does anybody with programming experience have a comment on this?

[RayBornert]

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for now there isnt much to do against bots who play just simple ABC poker. But when the bots get better an start heavily working with oponnent stats, the best thing would be getting rid of all stats like hand histories.

[/ QUOTE ]

cyclo,

this is a delicate balance here.

there is already evidence to indicate
that players are gravitating toward sites
that provide excellent hh feedback and so
once again sites will be motivated to do
what depositing players want to do.

it would be a bad strategy for a new site
to not provide hh's; online players like
tracking quite a bit.

ray

[slim]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post5464902

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They could patrol around the tables and actually make an attempt to find them.

They can identify players that have been on for extremely long sessions and make sure they are human.

If a bot is playing for 80 hours straight then can't they at least look into it?

If a bot takes some breaks in there to try to counter-act it but has still played for some in-human amount of time like 75 out of 80 hours then it is worth looking into.

Yes, there is the risk of ticking off some crazy fish who just happened to play for an insanely long amount of time. But most winning players who play marathon sessions will understand the need to be pro-active on this stuff.


This is assuming the sites do it the right way and approach the player professionally about it.
This is different from the way many sites seem to have developed of just locking/freezing accounts and not telling anyone why.


If the sites would confiscate funds in the obvious situations that would help a lot as well.
I suspect a significant percentage of the current botters would be intimidated against continuing or trying it in the first place if they hear of someone losing a ton of money after getting caught.

Redistributing it to some of the other players should be considered also of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

micro,

try to think like a site operator for a moment.
your business model is tied to rake generating chairs.

how motivated will you be to spend money to stop those
rake generating chairs?

hmmm ...
spend money to increase rake generating chairs
... or
spend money to decrease rake generating chairs

if you as a player generate x amount of rake per day and
a pro botter generates 10 times that much at the same limit
then i can assure you that what the pro botter wants is 10
times more important than what you want. especially since
the pro botter has almost zero support cost because they
dont ever complain.

about the only thing the site really wants from us is to
appear to be human so that the anti-botters will be appeased.

ray

[/ QUOTE ]
Why would they want to sacrifice their long term profit for a short term gain?

Juk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

juk,

bottom line is that they will be interested in the goal
of increasing the number of rake generating chairs.

ray