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#11
11-13-2006, 11:32 AM
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Re: is this a good spot to cont bet?
I don't mind a cont. bet here, if anything, for meta game. Plus, as hince pointed out, there is a lot of right that may happen with this hand. Also, the players will have to assume you have a strong hand because you must bet to protect it on this board.
The meta game thing is pretty big, especially if you have a table that is loose passive or that is solid but tending toward loose passive against an aggressive opponent. You do this once in a multiway and watch yourself get paid off in other multiways when you do hit big. It's nice. Some opponents may be able to distinguish one board from the next, but I doubt it. Now for the bad: no reads on opponents. A board that may have hit so many hands that would still prefer to play passively. Like, QJ, for instance. QJ isn't going anywhere for at least two streets. At the same time, a lot of players won't raise in fear of KK/AA/QQ not folding (which most wouldn't at this level). If a Q comes up, you're gonna have to deal with a lot of BS for the rest of the hand. A lot of players at this level have no [censored] clue what meta game is. Overall, I've become a lot more cautious with respect to boards like this. I think that this bet is marginal and, if you are going to make it, it should be for other reasons in addition to simply taking the pot down on the flop. 
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#12
11-13-2006, 11:35 AM
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Re: is this a good spot to cont bet?
C-betting this board against 2 opponents is a leak.
And image + a couple of outs don't change it.
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#13
11-13-2006, 11:38 AM
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Re: is this a good spot to cont bet?
cbet w/ 2 overs and a GS in position vs 2 villains= meh.
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#15
11-13-2006, 11:52 AM
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Re: is this a good spot to cont bet?
[ QUOTE ]
C-betting this board against 2 opponents is a leak. And image + a couple of outs don't change it. [/ QUOTE ] This is not a leak. Yes, the flop may have connected with someone, but is also connected with us. Think about what could happen in the hand. The last thing I want is for a 10 to roll out on the turn and get stacked by KQ that would have folded to a flop bet. Or lose money to Top and Bottom when an ace hits the turn. If we bet, there is a decent chance we are called, but if we bet 3/4 psb, they don't even need to fold half the time, we also have some equity in the hand so it's not like this is a total bluff. Most importantly, if we bet, we fold out hands that give us reverse implied odds. As well, any hand that calls isn't going to want to go ballz out if we improve. If a Q falls, QJ is scared of the one liner, if an ace falls, the only hand that give us action is 2 pair. This makes our hand really easy to play. Not to mention a non-threatening club on the turn gives us a draw to the nuts, and a chance to win a very very big pot. In summary, if we check, we don't get check raised and take one free card. If we bet, we may win the pot immediately, we see 2 cards cheap, we fold out hands that could cost us a lot, we control the pot size, and we define our opponents hand. Therefore, we make fewer mistakes, and give ourselves more chances to win a big (or at least raised) pot.
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#16
11-13-2006, 11:56 AM
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Re: is this a good spot to cont bet?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] C-betting this board against 2 opponents is a leak. And image + a couple of outs don't change it. [/ QUOTE ] This is not a leak. Yes, the flop may have connected with someone, but is also connected with us. Think about what could happen in the hand. The last thing I want is for a 10 to roll out on the turn and get stacked by KQ that would have folded to a flop bet. Or lose money to Top and Bottom when an ace hits the turn. If we bet, there is a decent chance we are called, but if we bet 3/4 psb, they don't even need to fold half the time, we also have some equity in the hand so it's not like this is a total bluff. Most importantly, if we bet, we fold out hands that give us reverse implied odds. As well, any hand that calls isn't going to want to go ballz out if we improve. If a Q falls, QJ is scared of the one liner, if an ace falls, the only hand that give us action is 2 pair. This makes our hand really easy to play. Not to mention a non-threatening club on the turn gives us a draw to the nuts, and a chance to win a very very big pot. In summary, if we check, we don't get check raised and take one free card. If we bet, we may win the pot immediately, we see 2 cards cheap, we fold out hands that could cost us a lot, we control the pot size, and we define our opponents hand. Therefore, we make fewer mistakes, and give ourselves more chances to win a big (or at least raised) pot. [/ QUOTE ] As with anything else in poker, this is not a leak if you have a good reason for doing it. Most of the time you won't against two opponents, and with this particular hand, it is "meh."
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#17
11-13-2006, 11:58 AM
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Re: is this a good spot to cont bet?
I CB in this spot pretty often. We're in position and neither opponent has shown any strength.
I almost always check behind on the turn UI, though, which may well be a leak. I can see this being a great place to double barrel if it goes to the turn HU.
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#18
11-13-2006, 12:03 PM
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Re: is this a good spot to cont bet?
Your reasoning sounds compelling, but I'm still not c-betting in these spots by default on this board. I doubt it makes a huge difference if you c-bet or not in these spots.
I tend to raise and reraise a lot preflop and c-bet most of the time, so I expect that villains are more likely to play back at me light (or call me down). This makes it not that hot to bet this flop.
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#19
11-13-2006, 12:04 PM
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Re: is this a good spot to cont bet?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] C-betting this board against 2 opponents is a leak. And image + a couple of outs don't change it. [/ QUOTE ] This is not a leak. Yes, the flop may have connected with someone, but is also connected with us. Think about what could happen in the hand. The last thing I want is for a 10 to roll out on the turn and get stacked by KQ that would have folded to a flop bet. Or lose money to Top and Bottom when an ace hits the turn. If we bet, there is a decent chance we are called, but if we bet 3/4 psb, they don't even need to fold half the time, we also have some equity in the hand so it's not like this is a total bluff. Most importantly, if we bet, we fold out hands that give us reverse implied odds. As well, any hand that calls isn't going to want to go ballz out if we improve. If a Q falls, QJ is scared of the one liner, if an ace falls, the only hand that give us action is 2 pair. This makes our hand really easy to play. Not to mention a non-threatening club on the turn gives us a draw to the nuts, and a chance to win a very very big pot. In summary, if we check, we don't get check raised and take one free card. If we bet, we may win the pot immediately, we see 2 cards cheap, we fold out hands that could cost us a lot, we control the pot size, and we define our opponents hand. Therefore, we make fewer mistakes, and give ourselves more chances to win a big (or at least raised) pot. [/ QUOTE ] As with anything else in poker, this is not a leak if you have a good reason for doing it. Most of the time you won't against two opponents, and with this particular hand, it is "meh." [/ QUOTE ] Well, can you tell me where my logic is bad? why is this 'meh'? I see a lot of responses that say this is 'meh' or 'don't continuation bet multiway on this coordinated board', but no explainations. I've written out my reasoning, and I don't think it is close. Unless you think you will be c/r, how is putting in 3/4 PSB bad? or ever 'meh'?
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#20
11-13-2006, 12:06 PM
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Re: is this a good spot to cont bet?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] C-betting this board against 2 opponents is a leak. And image + a couple of outs don't change it. [/ QUOTE ] This is not a leak. Yes, the flop may have connected with someone, but is also connected with us. Think about what could happen in the hand. The last thing I want is for a 10 to roll out on the turn and get stacked by KQ that would have folded to a flop bet. Or lose money to Top and Bottom when an ace hits the turn. If we bet, there is a decent chance we are called, but if we bet 3/4 psb, they don't even need to fold half the time, we also have some equity in the hand so it's not like this is a total bluff. Most importantly, if we bet, we fold out hands that give us reverse implied odds. As well, any hand that calls isn't going to want to go ballz out if we improve. If a Q falls, QJ is scared of the one liner, if an ace falls, the only hand that give us action is 2 pair. This makes our hand really easy to play. Not to mention a non-threatening club on the turn gives us a draw to the nuts, and a chance to win a very very big pot. In summary, if we check, we don't get check raised and take one free card. If we bet, we may win the pot immediately, we see 2 cards cheap, we fold out hands that could cost us a lot, we control the pot size, and we define our opponents hand. Therefore, we make fewer mistakes, and give ourselves more chances to win a big (or at least raised) pot. [/ QUOTE ] As with anything else in poker, this is not a leak if you have a good reason for doing it. Most of the time you won't against two opponents, and with this particular hand, it is "meh." [/ QUOTE ] Well, can you tell me where my logic is bad? why is this 'meh'? I see a lot of responses that say this is 'meh' or 'don't continuation bet multiway on this coordinated board', but no explainations. I've written out my reasoning, and I don't think it is close. Unless you think you will be c/r, how is putting in 3/4 PSB bad? or ever 'meh'? [/ QUOTE ] I don't like it because of my image, I'm messing about in a lot of small pots and people call me on these boards with just about any pair. Especially if I have been particulary agressive. If you have AKo in this exact spot it would be a clear check right?
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