Busted Draws: Help on the Turn + River

gulon · #1 02-03-2006, 12:23 PM

I could use some help in properly playing my draws when they don't hit on the turn. Please fire away, I won't cry.

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 4 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

> I think Hero should have raised rather than complete here.

Flop: (4 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

> Was it right to raise the turn? My thinking was 1) 4 outs to nut-flush 2) middle pair 3) 3 outs to hit an Ace for 2-pair. So even though I haven't hit my flush yet, I thought it was worth raising. Was this correct?

River: (7 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls.

> Calling is better than folding here right?

Final Pot: 9 BB

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PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises, CO (poster) calls, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, CO calls, BB folds, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

> Was it correct to raise the flop? Two overcards (6 outs) + inside nut straight draw (4 outs) + backdoor nut flush draw (1.5 outs). That's 11.5 outs right?

Turn: (9.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, CO calls, UTG calls.

River: (13.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, MP2 bets, Hero folds, CO folds, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

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k000k · #2 02-03-2006, 12:34 PM

Hand 1, I'd just call the flop. You dont wanna knock out everyone who's going to pad your flush draw. The river, I guess I'd make the call, but it's close, I'm expecting he'll show me a J.

Hand 2, played fine. I'd discount your outs a little on the flop, I'd call it 10. I'd be raising the flop to knock players out, not for value.

Aaron W. · #3 02-03-2006, 01:01 PM

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PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 4 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

> I think Hero should have raised rather than complete here.

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Usually not. If you have reason to believe that villains are weak postflop, then a raise starts to increase in value. Either that, or if there were a couple more villains in the pot... or only one from late position.

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Flop: (4 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls.

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I like this 3-bet. You've got 9 flush outs plus 5 two pair/trips outs so you're going to win the pot more than half the time (assuming all those outs are good).

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Turn: (5 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

> Was it right to raise the turn? My thinking was 1) 4 outs to nut-flush 2) middle pair 3) 3 outs to hit an Ace for 2-pair. So even though I haven't hit my flush yet, I thought it was worth raising. Was this correct?

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Depends on villain. If you think his raise on the flop means a better hand than yours, then check-call here so you don't get raised. Your equity has dropped because you missed your draw and now you only make your hand about 30% of the time. If you think there's a reasonable chance of him folding, a bet is good.

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River: (7 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls.

> Calling is better than folding here right?

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Probably. But if villain is passive, he almost certainly has a jack (based on his flop raise) and you're not going to win this very often. Use your reads.

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PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises, CO (poster) calls, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, CO calls, BB folds, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

> Was it correct to raise the flop? Two overcards (6 outs) + inside nut straight draw (4 outs) + backdoor nut flush draw (1.5 outs). That's 11.5 outs right?

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Don't raise this flop. You're usually not buying outs or protecting your hand. You would rather have people call along to pad the pot when you make your hand. After that, it looks good.

deception5 · #4 02-03-2006, 01:52 PM

First hand is perfectly played imho.

Second hand I think is fine as well. Calling the flop would be ok too but I do think you occasionally clean up your A/K outs by raising.

michaliv · #5 02-03-2006, 01:57 PM

Hand 1: I would not three bet this flop. I would also just check the turn hoping to get a free card. With the river missing it would be hard to call down here. There is only a small chance that your hand is good here. About the only time I could see you wining this hand is if he was on a flush draw as well or he hit an 8 (having a straight draw on the flop). With that said you are getting pretty good odds to call him down (8:1), so I would be inclined to call down here unless it is a tight player.

Hand 2: This may be a case for taking one off. I would probably just call however and see what comes on the turn. Whether or not you can call the turn bet is decided by what you put your opponent on here. If you think Aces or Kings will be good, then you could definetly call here. The way you played it (raising it on the flop) you are priced in to try to hit your straight on the river. It is an easy fold when the river misses you.

gulon · #6 02-03-2006, 02:03 PM

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Turn: (5 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

> Was it right to raise the turn? My thinking was 1) 4 outs to nut-flush 2) middle pair 3) 3 outs to hit an Ace for 2-pair. So even though I haven't hit my flush yet, I thought it was worth raising. Was this correct?

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Depends on villain. If you think his raise on the flop means a better hand than yours, then check-call here so you don't get raised. Your equity has dropped because you missed your draw and now you only make your hand about 30% of the time. If you think there's a reasonable chance of him folding, a bet is good.

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Ok, so if hero bets and gets re-raised, that would be a total of 3BB in a 8BB pot or 37%. Since we only own 30% equity in the pot, it's not a good deal. Holy crap, I think I just learned something! You guys ROCK!

Aaron W. · #7 02-03-2006, 03:54 PM

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Turn: (5 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

> Was it right to raise the turn? My thinking was 1) 4 outs to nut-flush 2) middle pair 3) 3 outs to hit an Ace for 2-pair. So even though I haven't hit my flush yet, I thought it was worth raising. Was this correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on villain. If you think his raise on the flop means a better hand than yours, then check-call here so you don't get raised. Your equity has dropped because you missed your draw and now you only make your hand about 30% of the time. If you think there's a reasonable chance of him folding, a bet is good.

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Ok, so if hero bets and gets re-raised, that would be a total of 3BB in a 8BB pot or 37%. Since we only own 30% equity in the pot, it's not a good deal. Holy crap, I think I just learned something! You guys ROCK!

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Well... except that you didn't quite learn something valid.

On the turn, you've got 30% equity if you're behind. That means you get 30% of the money that goes into the pot on that round plus 30% of the money already in the pot. Your 'money in the pot' isn't going to change, so that's 30% of 5 BB = 1.5 BB. For the 'money going in'...

- If you bet and get called -- or if you check-call -- you put in 1 BB to win 30% of 2 BB = .6 BB, ie you lose .4 BB.
- If you bet and get raised, you put in 2 BB to win 30% of 4 BB = 1.2 BB, ie you lose .8 BB.

So when you're behind (and villain isn't folding when you're behind), you lose money when you put money in the pot.

It gets complicated fast if you think there's a chance you've got the best hand, because then your equity is probably in 80% range, and you make money by betting. This is why it depends so much on villain and what his flop raise means.

davelin · #8 02-03-2006, 04:21 PM

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Hand 1, I'd just call the flop. You dont wanna knock out everyone who's going to pad your flush draw.

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By the time BB's raise gets back to him it's HU. You could argue that Hero's equity plus the chances he's good makes a 3-bet on the flop okay.

swong4444 · #9 02-03-2006, 04:39 PM

In hand 1, what do people think about going for a check-raise? Hero has huge equity, and we want to build the biggest pot possible here. Betting out allows someone to raise out the field (are we happy when BB faces the field with 2 bets... I think not). I see a lot of good things happening if hero checkraises the flop either for value or protection depending on who bets (ie, button bets and we get head's up with a potentially weak hand, someone/bb bets and we trap some callers for 2 bets, it checks through and we bet the turn with the best hand). Thoughts?

Otherwise, I like hero's line after the flop bet.

car ramrod · #10 02-03-2006, 04:45 PM

hand 1 looks good.

hand 2, I like the flop raise, you can clean up some outs, I wouldn't do it without the gutshot and the bdfd.