Caesar's Palace- Player went all in and ran away with $ after I called

[RR]

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He acquired knowledge by finding out that OP was going to call. Anyway, even if this isn't the relevant section of the law, I'm very confident its covered somewhere (I have no desire to go wading through Nevada gaming laws). Like I said above, to think otherwise is severly underestimating the gaming industry. Which is never a good idea when it comes to how they protect their profits.

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I'm not going to go wading through the regs (unless I have a really slow day at work sometime). The regs were written with pit games and machines in mind. I know of two incidents in the past where I personally caught players cheating and gaming declined to prosecute (both cases had to do with tournament chips). I am interested to see if anything comes of this. I hate to see someone get away with something like this, but I also do not like the idea of gaming charging poeple with a theft crime if they refuse to hand over money when the floor tells them to. Any place else (at least that I can think of) if a person has some money in his possession it takes a court order to take it from them (or at least it is supposed to to be able to keep it). If this gy is found guilty it seems liek that is leading to a situation where the casino can order you to ahnd over your money and if you refuse charge you with a crime. That is not a path I want to head down.

[Photoc]

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This is [censored] ridiculous. I was at the wynn once, when a player was counting his chips in the middle of a hand, while he was waiting to muck, he had his chips in front of his cards.
Someone that was in the hand said that because his chips were in front of his cards it was a bet.

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In most Vegas cardrooms that don't have betting lines, if you move chips forward in front of your cards and release them (counting them), it's definately a bet. Your cards are your betting line. Never count chips out from of your cards just to be safe or better yet, ask for the rule when you walk into a poker room to find out what is the best way to go about it.

[jjshabado]

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He acquired knowledge by finding out that OP was going to call. Anyway, even if this isn't the relevant section of the law, I'm very confident its covered somewhere (I have no desire to go wading through Nevada gaming laws). Like I said above, to think otherwise is severly underestimating the gaming industry. Which is never a good idea when it comes to how they protect their profits.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to go wading through the regs (unless I have a really slow day at work sometime). The regs were written with pit games and machines in mind. I know of two incidents in the past where I personally caught players cheating and gaming declined to prosecute (both cases had to do with tournament chips). I am interested to see if anything comes of this. I hate to see someone get away with something like this, but I also do not like the idea of gaming charging poeple with a theft crime if they refuse to hand over money when the floor tells them to. Any place else (at least that I can think of) if a person has some money in his possession it takes a court order to take it from them (or at least it is supposed to to be able to keep it). If this gy is found guilty it seems liek that is leading to a situation where the casino can order you to ahnd over your money and if you refuse charge you with a crime. That is not a path I want to head down.

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Oh I whole-heartedly agree with you that I don't want a casino to be able to order you to hand over money. But I don't think thats where this would lead. (The crime he's being accused of isn't of not handing over money to the casino, its of not honouring a wager he made.) If he's found guilty its leading to a situation where if you have a disagreement with a casino's ruling you get to face an unbiased court to decide what happens. This resolution process protects people like the OP because they'd get their money (admittedly late, but...) and the accussed.

[Rottersod]

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He acquired knowledge by finding out that OP was going to call. Anyway, even if this isn't the relevant section of the law, I'm very confident its covered somewhere (I have no desire to go wading through Nevada gaming laws). Like I said above, to think otherwise is seriously underestimating the gaming industry. Which is never a good idea when it comes to how they protect their profits.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to go wading through the regs (unless I have a really slow day at work sometime). The regs were written with pit games and machines in mind. I know of two incidents in the past where I personally caught players cheating and gaming declined to prosecute (both cases had to do with tournament chips). I am interested to see if anything comes of this. I hate to see someone get away with something like this, but I also do not like the idea of gaming charging people with a theft crime if they refuse to hand over money when the floor tells them to. Any place else (at least that I can think of) if a person has some money in his possession it takes a court order to take it from them (or at least it is supposed to to be able to keep it). If this guy is found guilty it seems like that is leading to a situation where the casino can order you to ahnd over your money and if you refuse charge you with a crime. That is not a path I want to head down.

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Randy, he is not being prosecuted by a casino. The casino called the NGC and either they used their police powers (if they have any) or they had him arrested by LVPD. If he is going to be prosecuted it will be by the LVDA and they will have all the video evidence along with statements from everyone who witnessed it. If it does come to a trial (and there's about a 1% possibility of that. This will likely be plea bargained) this guy will have the presumption of innocence but the state will be able to put on a case and try to convince the jury that he is guilty of robbery as defined under the statutes or some other crime they may charge him with instead. In all cases his rights will be protected but lets just say I wouldn't want to be in his position in Nevada where they take casino crimes very seriously.

[tourney guy]

Some points here:

1) The player who committed his chips and said "i'll put him all in" has DEFINITELY committed a felony...no question about it.

In any licenced gaming area, theft of over $1,000 is a felony. If you steal 1K from a player off of a BJ table or a craps rail, it is a felony. If you pinch 1K off of your losing bet, it is a felony.

Owing another player in poker and not paying is a felony if it is over 1K, simply and irrefutably.

2) Caesars Palace is not liable, it is true. However, the hypocrisy comes into play when the ability to pay back becomes subjective. Madman, if you were a "Diamond' or "7-star" slot or table player, you would have gotten the 1,200 back that very day. Since CP is only making it from you $4 at a time, you mean nothing to them. That is the sad reality. I know for sure HET has NOT paid back 7K stolen from a player off a craps game because he was not a 'rated' player, but did pay back $100 to a 'highly-rated' BJ player who had chips stolen.

It is all about your worth to their bottom line, and loyalty means nothing.

3) From experience, CP did everything correctly. The floor staff has been trained from day one by the original manager to handle these gaming situations. Madman, I would be pissed, but it is the player, not CP, you should be pissed at. You should press charges and make sure he gets prosecuted.

4) In these type of gaming cases, judges and juries are almost unanimous in support of a cheated patron. This type of case has been tried 100 times, if not more, and the thief usually, when he learns of his fate, cuts a deal to couch up the funds, take a slap on the wrist and get his picture sent to every LV casino.

[QuadsOverQuads]

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J.R. then started gathering his money and putting it in his pockets. The floor came over and asked what happened
...
Then J.R. finished putting his money away, and turned to leave.

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I think this illustrates a procedural loophole that ought to be seriously considered by everyone in the poker business.

The key question is : why was this man allowed (physically) to remove chips from the table while they were still the subject of an ongoing dispute?

It seems to me that security should, at minimum, have physically prevented the removal of the chips from the table until the dispute was resolved. As became apparant, these were clearly no longer his chips to remove, as he had voluntarily placed them in the pot and then mucked his hand. Since the floorperson could not know that when s/he first arrived, the removal of the chips from the table should have been prevented until a resolution was achieved. The dealer should also have notified the floor immediately that the chips being taken off the table were not necessarily his to remove.

The upshot is that this player was, in fact, removing *someone else's* chips from the table. In any other context, security would stop this from happening *immediately*. Poker should be no different. If there is an ongoing dispute, ownership of the chips should be clarified before removal of *any* of the disputed chips from the table is allowed.

If the player attempts to remove the chips anyway, security should be immediately called, and the removal should be physically stopped until the dispute is resolved.

Procedures for dealers and security personnel should be revised as necessary to address this situation.


</My Two Cents>


q/q

[AngusThermopyle]

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J.R. then started gathering his money and putting it in his pockets. The floor came over and asked what happened, and J.R. tried to make his case. The table held true, and he became agitated. The floor man put in a call to security. Then J.R. finished putting his money away, and turned to leave.



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The key question is : why was this man allowed (physically) to remove chips from the table while they were still the subject of an ongoing dispute?




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What do you want? A bunch of security guards standing around the tables "just in case"? A half dozen should come running each time the floor is called to a table?
When it was apparent that the player was not going to put the chips in the pot security was called. At that point the guy split. Where was the chance for security to arrive?

Or did you want the dealer to get up and stop him from picking up the chips before the floor arrived? Did you think the floor should have taken the chips/cash out of the guy's pockets?

[halimeda]

This summer I saw the same thing at the Bellagio when I was playing no limit there...much smaller pot but when the guy refused to pay (due to his own stupidity of course) the floor was called by the dealer. Floor told the guy if he didn't pay then he would be banned for life from the Bellagio and the guy chose to be banned rather than pay up the measly $40 or so. They kicked the idiot out then told the other player (who was due the pot) that the casino would of course cover the money due. They brought him the money less than 5 minutes later...pretty classy I thought. Bellagio rules, Ceasers drools....bad beat man.

[tourney guy]

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This summer I saw the same thing at the Bellagio when I was playing no limit there...much smaller pot but when the guy refused to pay (due to his own stupidity of course) the floor was called by the dealer. Floor told the guy if he didn't pay then he would be banned for life from the Bellagio and the guy chose to be banned rather than pay up the measly $40 or so. They kicked the idiot out then told the other player (who was due the pot) that the casino would of course cover the money due. They brought him the money less than 5 minutes later...pretty classy I thought. Bellagio rules, Ceasers drools....bad beat man.

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If it were more than 1K, it would be an entirely different story...that is the entire point of the story.

At 40 dollars, GCB would not arrest the patron in question. If it is a 80hr/week player, it is worth it to fade the 40 bucks.

[pokerfloor]

pretty much the same way I think it was handeled fine
I don't know what will happen to this guy, but I am sure he will have to give over the money If the casino were to pay for every mistake or shot taken they would close the poker rooms.This guy was drunk and stupid and the OP will get his money and I hope they do make an example out of him.