you be the floor

[TMTTR]

I think it is the dealer's responsibility to know where the button is and who the blinds are and CO's responsibility to know that BB has not acted -- its not like a multiway post-flop pot where it is difficult to determine who is still in. Indeed, I would assume that BB's chips are still sitting in front of him (or they were pulled into the pot improperly).

If the stub of the deck has not been added to the muck and if the rules of the room allow a player to expose their cards when a pot is heads up, I would tell BB he can fold or play on by calling or raising. If exposed cards kill the hand or the stub has been mixed with the muck, the pot belongs to BB.

[Khabbi]

The BB didn't really do anything wrong, the pot should be awarded to him. CO didn't protect his hand and it got mucked.

When the floor came over, what is the dealer's reason for awarding the pot to CO? "He had his hands on his cards". I doubt this even came up in the conversation with the floor.

[BKyef]

I actually had this situation come up. If it went down as you said it is such a clear angle shot. I award the pot to the 2 queens and warn the player that he must act on his hand and keep his cards exposed so the table know he is in the hand.



Pertinent rules from "Robert's Rules":

18. Players must keep their cards in full view. This means above table-level and not past the edge of the table. The cards should not be covered by the hands in a manner to completely conceal them.

11. To retain the right to act, a player must stop the action by calling “time” (or an equivalent word). Failure to stop the action before three or more players have acted behind you may cause you to lose the right to act. You cannot forfeit your right to act if any player in front of you has not acted, only if you fail to act when it legally becomes your turn.

Although the second rule (11) refers to 3 or more players, I think allowing a hand to be mucked and the pot to be pushed before calling attention is in the same spirit here.


Edit: I posted before the additional comment about it being accidental and a newb....that makes it tougher but I think I still rule the same way due to the extreme amount of time that poassed before he did anything.

[_TKO_]

[ QUOTE ]
CO didn't protect his hand and it got mucked.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the dealer indicated in any way to CO that she was the only remaining player (ie by pushing the pot to her), then the CO is not in the wrong; the dealer is. I think that BB should have the option to table her hand if she believes it is playable. If it is clear that she would have played her hand had the action been correct, then the pot should be split (not including CO's raise). If BB agrees that QQ is the better hand, she should put no additional money into the pot; CO should not earn additional money as a clear favourite.

While BB is the only player with a hand remaining, the dealer has declared the deal to have ended by mixing the muck with the stub. If the muck is seperate from the stub, then BB's cards must be live and BB should collect the blinds and the CO's raise.

EDIT: I've edited this post several times now. Each time, I think it becomes clearer that the pot be awarded to BB. The CO mucked her hand before the pot was awarded.

[cpk]

The correct ruling is that the BB is out of luck. It would be useful to warn CO for exposing cards.

[TMTTR]

[ QUOTE ]
If it went down as you said it is such a clear angle shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if he isn't a newb, how can this be an angle shot? He has his big blind sitting in front of him and he has done nothing in the hand so far. Why does everyone think it takes more than 5 seconds for a hand to be flipped up and mucked and a pot to be pushed? BB is the big blind. He has the right to act last and everyone at the table should know that. His cards should be visible but there are many people that partially obscure their cards with their hands or their chips without any intention of hiding them -- particularly when they are the BB and have not yet acted preflop!

[bwana devil]

my untrained answer: id tell BB tough cookies.

this brings up a HUGE pet peeve of mine when playing live. chumps who rest their hands in front of their chips the entire time. you dont know whether they have cards under there or not.

ill make a comment or two to these players but they never seem to understand that they are hiding their cards and why this is wrong.

best way to handle in the future?

bwana

[_TKO_]

[ QUOTE ]
ill make a comment or two to these players but they never seem to understand that they are hiding their cards and why this is wrong.

best way to handle in the future?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just tell her that if she does not act on her hands and there is significant action behind her, her action will default to a check if there is no bet, and a fold if there was a bet.

Edit to keep this on topic: The OP made it clear that BB did not do this intentionally. The error was with the dealer and perhaps also the CO. The BB should not be penalized.

[bwana devil]

[ QUOTE ]
whose a$$ should be kicked

[/ QUOTE ]

let's get one thing straight. no one should ever get his ass kicked because of poker.

bwana

[TMTTR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
whose a$$ should be kicked

[/ QUOTE ]

let's get one thing straight. no one should ever get his ass kicked because of poker.

bwana

[/ QUOTE ]

That is correct. They can be kicked in the nuts, but absolutely no ass kicking. We are civilized people.