Play a Hand With the Masters #3 Flop

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]

Pre-Flop and Flop Questions

1) A lot of people talk about playing tight early and don't try to steal blinds when they are this small. What do you think about blind stealing at this level? Would you do it and if so under what conditions?

2) What's your decision on the flop? Do you check or bet (and if so, how much)?

3) What's your plan on the turn (if any) based on your decision on the flop, the villain's action, and what card comes?

4) Any other thoughts at this point?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the raise. As MLG said, we're not neccessarily stealing here. I think that people that don't start raising in the early levels for the reason of "not worth stealing" are making a huge mistake. Besides the metagame considerations (ooh, first time I used that phrase) you can build decent pots against presumably weaker players that haven't had a chance to get busted yet.

I bet 1/2-2/3 pot on the flop because I'd often c-bet even if I whiffed. A free card here is terrible. He's coming along with any decent draw and top pair/overpair.

On the turn my action on any heart, str8 card, or 9 depends on his bet. If he called my flop bet I'm more woriied baout a 9 than a heart so I may bet out a heart to get a cheap showdown if it's not too scary.

Thoughts are that right now I'm willing to play a big pot. If the turn isn't too scary I may try and take it down there.

[Grunch]

I'd like to toss my naive hat in to this ring.

In general, regarding blinds-stealing early. I'll definitely try to steal blinds in the early stages. For one thing, I'd prefer to have a LAG image early and a TAG image late, and early blind-stealing helps a lot. The reason for this is becasue I want my big hands paid off early and I don't play as many hands as my opponents thing. And later, when the blinds are much bigger compared to stacks, I want my steals respected.

So I'd raise this preflop, but in this case it's not 100% a steal raise. I want to play this hand first of all, becasue it can flop very big and I feel I can outplay my opponents often enough, especially in position. Second, since it was checked around to me, I'm opening for a raise any hand I intend to play. This helps my loose-aggressive image whereas open-limping hurts it. Plus, given that I'm on the button I'd very often raise this even if there were many limpers ahead of me.

On the flop, I bet my usual bet, around 2/3-3/4 PSB.If it were multiway, I'd bet a full pot. I bet for two reasons. First, and way more important, I bet for value.

Second, I bet to protect. The board is drawy, and I'm concerned about that. I'm less concerned becasue it's heads-up, but I'm still concerned and I feel compelled to charge draws. I feel that this is one of the weakest parts of my game currently. Why should I be so worried in a heads-up pot about being up against hearts? I'd like to be able to develop my game to the point where I'd be willing to check this flop if I felt that the best way to win the most or lose the least. But I'm not there yet.

On the turn, I'm planning to bet if checked to no matter what comes. I can find a fold if raised. Other than that it's hard to generalize. I'd like to see what comes.

[Hotrod0823]

1) Given the deepish stacks and the longer levels I see no reason not to raise this PF. Easy enough to get away from if RR and pretty easy to get away from if you miss the flop. Winning the blinds uncontested is a possiblity as well. With this hand your hand is well hidden. It can look like many things given position, reads and player history. I like the PF raise.

2) With bottom 2 on this board I like to bet it. I'd bet around the pot say 150. It is a draw heavy board with straight and flush possiblities but I think the BB's range is Axs or better here. With 150 I can still charge the draws to play and get away if BB pushes on me. Will bet and fold if RR allin. May call a small RR.

3) If the turn is a blank I am prepared to put out a 2/3 pot bet. I may bet out 1/2 pot or so if checked too if a flush/straight card comes or call a smallish 1/2 pot bet or less. I don't want to give any free cards here.

4) I am willing to play a bit on this flop but will be cautious if the turn card is scary.

Hotrod

[ghato]

1) I dont like raising to just steal the blinds at this level. But raising in this spot doesnt seem to be about stealing 30chips. Seems more designed to build the pot when Hero seems to have an edge (disguised hand with potential/position/great implied odds). I like it. Most of the time the BB will fold to a cbet anyway.

2) Bet 90 (its what I would bet as a cbet), call a check raise (unless villian is crazy enough to jam at this point which I strongly doubt).

3) Im goin to play this hand strong unless I see the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

4) A 5 or a 7 on the turn would be nice, unless he has 99 (muahahahaha)...

[jon_1van]

1) What do you think about blind stealing at this level? Would you do it and if so under what conditions?

I think this is fine. You aren't really stealing blinds. The bigger point of this hand is to get called. And play a hand when your opponent will be reluctant to put you on this particular hand. And because its deep you can afford to lose the inital bet if you are raised.

2) What's your decision on the flop? Do you check or bet (and if so, how much)?

I think you don't really have a choice but to bet here. It would look really wierd to check here. A cautious opponent might give you alot less action with a hand like 89 or A9 if you casually ignore this highly coordinated board. Also, you don't hate winning now, as the turn could get ugly.

I bet 100.

3) What's your plan on the turn (if any) based on your decision on the flop, the villain's action, and what card comes?

Ideally I'll have an oppurtunity to check behind. Given the oppurtinity I will do so, on any turn card.
I realize that there are some turn cards that most would bet. But I feel the value of "giving up" with your "over cards" thus inducing more action from a 89 type hand later, and the value of keeping the pot small is enough to warrent value betting.

I'd probably fold to a potish bet given an 6/8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] turn. I'd call a potish bet from most other cards. I would hope that calling the turn bet given a "touchy" turn card would prompt the opponent to check to me on the river. I'd prefer not to call to pot size bets.

4) Any other thoughts at this point?

I really want to play a small pot.

[McMelchior]

Without reading other's replies:
[ QUOTE ]
1) A lot of people talk about playing tight early and don't try to steal blinds when they are this small. What do you think about blind stealing at this level? Would you do it and if so under what conditions?


[/ QUOTE ] I like this play a lot - especially with the higher starting stacks. Without this kind of moves, I'm basically doomed to sit and wait for a prime hand, and even when I get it there's a big risk I might have to fold on the flop or the turn if the action implies somebody stayed in with a "unusual" hand and hit the board.

The very big advantage of raising here is, that it's basically impossible for opponents to put Strassa on a hand (at least early in the hand), whereas he will have a better chance of predicting what type of hands will call his raise.

It would be nice to have some kind of read on Villian, but in lack of that Strassa's possibly facing a low to medium pair (might even include JJ), two high cards or marginally suited connectors down to 87s.

Bottom two pair is not my favorite - a somewhat vulnerable holding, that must be protected. If I knew Villian to be aggressive I'd clearly check, hoping for an opportunity to put in a substantial CR and end the hand with a nice profit here.

But shy of any reads I'm betting the pot or close to the pot - t150.

If Villian raises I'm gleefully three-betting - big. Let there be no doubt I have the goods. OK, if he then pushes I'll have to be concerned about a set, though it's not that likely since I have two of the cards he'd need to make one. Again reads would be extremely valuable here. There'll always be a good chance of a slow-played overpair, especially in an online tournament with lots of low-buy-in satellite qualifiers in it.

If Villian flat calls the most concerning turn would (of course) be the flush card. Marginally an off-suit 8 (or even a 6), depending on how donkish I can imagine him to be. If one of those cards fall I'd probably put in a bet around 2/3 of the pot, and slow down substantially if I get a call or a raise.

Optimal cards course be and non-heart 2, 3, 4, 5 or 7. I would feel very confident and mainly worry about getting the most chips out of Villian.

Non-heart T or J could raise some concern, and I'd proceed steady but with care. Q, K or Ace would open the possibility that he hit one of his high cards and would be willing to commit substantial amounts of chips (though Ace would give the risk of being up against a higher two pair and lead to caution on my part).

Nice hand - thanks Lloyd (and Strassa).

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

[bruce]

BTF raising with a hand like this is a play I will often make.
I don't always do it, but I'll do it more times than I won't.
In order to get action later you have to give action. If you
don't play a hand for three levels and you pick up Aces and they all fold, you have no one but yourself to blame.

On the flop I have to figure I'm ahead 90% of the time. I want to play this hand in such a way that I can get all my chips in there on the flop. I don't want to wait until the turn because if I get flop action there are too many cards which will kill my action and put me in a spot where I'm not
sure where I am. If an nine comes, a heart comes, or four to a straight are on the board it's too easy for me to be outplayed. I would probably make a slightly larger than pot
bet in the hopes that my opponent thinks I'm making a play at him. This doesn't look how someone would play this flop with a made hand. By me making a bigger bet I'm hoping my opponent will play back at me and I can move all in. Contrarily another way to play this hand is to make a ridiculously small bet and try to induce my opponent to raise and then I can play back at him. But this is one of the few spots where I will not make a standard continuation bet because I can induce more action, I believe, playing it differently.

Bruce

[MLG]

[ QUOTE ]
I would probably make a slightly larger than pot
bet in the hopes that my opponent thinks I'm making a play at him. This doesn't look how someone would play this flop with a made hand

[/ QUOTE ]

This looks like exactly how a scared player would play the flop with a made hand.

[Ansky]

Preflop: I definitely would raise here with this hand, but only to 60, because that'd be my standard LP open. w/ stacks this deep, and good position I see nothing wrong with an open raise with this hand. Opening here against a blind, you are in such a good position to outplay your opponent post flop, that I think you can justify raising any 2 decent cards. I suppose it is a matter of style, but I definitely would raise in this spot. Also, if someone else open raised to 3x or 4x, I probably would call the raise as well.


Flop: Once our opponent checks, I'm betting this hand very strong. I would bet no less than 3/4ths pot here, and maybe even full pot. There is no reason to ever check behind here IMO, as practically half the deck is a scare card. Most times you will take this pot down, but in the event that our opponent plays back, chances are we still have the better, yet very vulnerable hand.

So if the opponent check raises here to a decent amount, I'm just calling. 3 betting bottom 2 on this board would suck IMO. All worse hands fold, and better ones call. Also, you basically would be committing yourself, which I don't think we want to do on the flop. I would much rather get my $$$ in on a clean turn card.

Ok, suppose our opponent calls. This is what I'd do on the following turn cards, assuming our opponent checks:

9: Check behind, call a bet on the river if its a relatively safe card, and his bet is not huge.

7 or 5, I'd still bet strongly, as our hand is very disguised. If it complete the flush however, I'd bet only half pot. This way, our villain won't get hesitant if he has a weak flush, or something like top pair or a weak overpair. Also, if he has a mediocre made pair, w/ a big heart, he may be inclined to peel a card to make his flush, even though he is drawing dead.

If it is any heart, or a heart/straight card: I'm checking behind, and calling any decent sized river bet, assuming the board doesnt pair, or put up a 4 flush. Again, I hate to give a free card, but our hand has a lot of showdown value, and I'd hate to get check raised on the turn. Also, if we check behind, our hand looks like a wiffed AK/AQ type hand, and our opponent may bluff the river.

If the board is a high card (ace, king, queen) but not a heart: I'm betting strong, calling any raise, and then calling a river bet unless our hand gets killed (heart rivers, we get counterfitted etc.)

If it is a blank: I'd bet 2/3rds pot or so, call any raise, and call any bet on the river barring a disastrous card (9, or the 8 of hearts or something like that.)

I banged this out in 5 minutes, so I may revise my thoughts on it upon further thought.

[tollundman]

(1) Like others have said you’re not raising preflop with this hand to just steal the blinds. It wouldn’t be terrible if this were to happen but there are other reasons.

With a 127bb stack, position is much more valuable because you are more likely to have action on all streets and this means you will have more information at your disposal when making your decisions.
Raising preflop makes it easier to take down the pot with a bluff postflop as you have shown strength throughout the hand.
You’re also raising because you have a holding which can be very deceptive postflop if you make a big hand. Your implied odds are good against top pair and o/pair type hands because of your hand’s deceptiveness and perhaps your opponents poor postflop play with deep stacks.

An added benefit of raising with this hand is that if you get to show it down then some opponents will thing you’re a real gambler, which can be great if you know how to take advantage of that image.

Some people have suggested limping with the hand. I personally wouldn’t as I’m almost never going to open limp with a strong hand from the CO and so if I were to, I feel like I’m giving up too much information about my holding. I feel it’s better to balance your game by raising with 75s than limping with aces.
If you did limp then it makes it harder to steal the pot on the flop as your opponent(s) are more likely to bluff in an unraised pot before you get to act.

(2) Flop is a clear bet – I’d bet $140.
If villain c-raises then I think a call is preferable to 3-betting. A 3-bet can let overpairs off the hook too easily, whereas they will likely contribute more $ on later streets should you just call their c-raise.
I can get big draws to put more money in later when my edge is much greater.

(3) Assuming villain calls 140 flop bet…
I would bet pretty much all turn cards barring the 6/8h or a 9 in which I’m looking for the cheapest possible showdown. Before betting you need to know how to handle a c-raise.
With 100bb’s then villain could put you to a commitment decision with a turn c-raise here. In this hand I think stacks are deep enough that you can call a turn c-raise and fold to a bet on an ugly river (if you want to). I think you would need to call any apparent blanks on the river tho’.

Checking a heart may be better for pot control reasons.
It depends on your confidence in your decision making if you were to bet and get c-raised .

If villain leads small on a blank turn then I would probably
raise as he’s more likely pricing himself in on a draw then value betting a monster(why would he give me a cheap river on this board?).
If villain leads for around pot then I need to factor in that any decent raise is gonna commit my stack. There are too many permutations to plan for all the particulars.