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Old 11-07-2006, 08:38 AM
Kurtiii Kurtiii is offline
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Default Long story, general questions (LONG !)

Hope someone bothers to read and post his thoughts. Iīm a "solid" winning player for over a year now over about 300-400k hands, hoping for some advice from players with a similar personality/poker background and the style of poker that comes with it. I play a mostly TAG game between 18/14 and 22/14 at NL100-200 at the moment. Probably a bit on the nit side postflop, since i am not the most self confident person on earth and somewhat risk aware.

Hereīs the background :
I started playing poker with 5$ at the micro stakes limit tables, and moved up the limits without ever reading a book or knowing about equity, ev or specific strategys. Kinda developed my game from a simple starting hand chart and common sence. Wich, after a couple of rough downswings due to overaggresive play, started to work pretty nicely.
After hearing about 23094239 times that i should pick up SSHE and MLHE and whatnot, i eventualy read those and it realy [censored] up my game. I overadjusted, tried to play robotic and "mathematicaly correct", wich was obvoiusly not going to work since i hardly did pot odds, and didnīt even know how to calculate my equity in a hand back then. I hung around though and managed to get play somewhat profitably up to 3/6$ limit shorthanded. This was where i noticed that i would often "know" my opponents exact 2 holecards, thus, once i got the confidence to go with my read, making some realy tough laydowns and calls. But those A high calls against missed draws and 2nd-nut-folds, when up against the nuts, where my only source of profit in those games - other than that i didnīt play very good, mostly to weak, not pushing my marginal edges and loosing those important extra slansky BBs all over the place, exept preflop of course [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

It only seemed logical that i should switch to NL, since my ability to make those sick calls and folds would net me alot more profit there. And it wouldnt hurt so much if i loose 1-2BB here and there, as i did hurt in limit poker. And it worked out just as i expected. Not only did i get some nice "******DONKEY" in the chatbox when i called off 50BB with AQhigh and beat a T high, but my winrate jumped up significantly. It also was a huge boost of motivation to read on this forum that there are indeed some highstakes proīs who never read books but still suceed at poker. So i ignored the books on NL poker and just read the forums a ton and looked at my tough hands in Pokertracker. I never actually calculated my EV in a certain hand after the session and had no "fundamental strategy" for certain situations. I just had to look at each and every hand i played individualy and judging, sometimes guessing, what the best play would be. The more hands i raked in, the less guesing of course.

The Problem :

About 5 month ago i put/gotten myself in a situation (Not gona tell the whole story since this post is allready long enough) where i was unter huge pressure to make a certain amount of money in a certain amount of time, without a plan B to fall back on. It went well at first, but as time passed by, the pressure started to drain out my confidence, since every lost pot wasnīt "just chips" anymore. And as you sure guessed, i hit a horrible downswing just when i needed it most. Had to move down a buyin and had to play a ton of hands where i didnīt play my A-game and as a result started secound guessing nearly every play i made. Up to a point where i sat at the tables and felt like i had no [censored] clue of what i was doing. To make it worse, alot of the regulars started to pick up on it and literaly run over me. So now i was running bad, playing bad, and had a target on my head. This was going on for about a month and a half and almost made me quit the game.
Now im out of that and made the money back plus a bit more, but my game still isnīt the same as it was before that happened. And no ... this wasnīt my first big downswing, and just the 2nd largest. Just those circumstances made it "special". The results however where similar in/after each swing. Just happened to be this one that made me finaly realize and admit it to myself.
As someone who didnīt realy "learn" poker by getting into the math and reading books like most of you did, it was very very hard to keep my confidence. Who knows if i didnīt just get a lucky run and generaly just suck at poker ? How am i gona plug my leaks now, after 1 year of "wrong poker", if it happens to be my huge leaks that caused the downwsing ? Those thoughts where creeping in my head constantly, and I kinda kept telling myself that 300-400k hands are a big enough sample size and that im realy unlucky blablabla ... i had to tell myself something to make it through the rough time, and i missed the most important part of a bad run of cards, wich is the oportunity to find mistakes and fix them. I just played and played until i started to hit a run of cards and ruined my game in the process. The thing i realized was: Once i was under real pressure and hit a larger than average downswing, my feeble "poker fundamentals" just didnīt hold up. There was nothing for me to get confidence from, exept the fact that i didnīt cash in a cent up today and cashout out a fair amount of $.

The Question:

Iīm surely not looking to get myself in this sort of trap again, but there probably will be another looong run of dead cards where i will start 2nd guessing my plays, and i would be stupid not to prepare myself for that. SO ... How do others, who learned poker in a similar way, deal with pressure, tilt and running bad ? Itīs surely not impossible, but harder when you canīt fall back on statistics and numbers that document that your play is winning money in the long run. And how did you find leaks/wrong thinking patterns that you "learned" early when you started playing poker ? There was a posting from ZeeJustin called "the luck of learning" where he stated that people who learned poker by just playing it, not by studying math and books may have a harder time to identify leaks. Some get "lucky" while learning, hence making the right mistakes at the right times or getting the "correct short term results". Like loosing money on a bad call, and winning money with a good protection raise. And others may get lucky on a bad call, winning the pot but getting in a bad habbit of felting every overpair for example, thus unlucky in a long term sence. And some finaly have big leaks (mostly hand selection i gues) but their hand reading skills kind of even it out. Iīm sure i have bad habbits, and probably not enough hand reading skill to even it out, even though i can fold AA sometimes [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]. How did you search and fix those leaks ?
Does it realy come down to starting at the basics and relearning all the things consciously that you picked up by playing so far ?

There probably isnīt a clear cut answer, and i donīt expect one. With different styles and personalities come different problems when running bad or trying to fix leaks. Iīd just be happy to hear some thoughts on this or read some stories from players that learned poker the same way.
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  #2  
Old 11-07-2006, 10:12 AM
kyzerjose kyzerjose is offline
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Default Re: Long story, general questions (LONG !)

Read this.
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  #3  
Old 11-07-2006, 01:33 PM
nawhead nawhead is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 98
Default Re: Long story, general questions (LONG !)

That post by Ed Miller should be in a sticky somewhere. It's certainly going in my war room collection.
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