So I know stop-loss is lame, but...

[Rottersod]

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However there will be times you lose 3+ buy ins playing really good poker, in those cases you shouldn't employ a stop-loss policy UNLESS losing money like that seriously effects your game.

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This is an example of another blanket statement that when looked at from the eyes of each individual player doesn't hold up. I really wish that posters would stop and think about making these kind of statements. Everyone has different limits for losses and different tolerances for the types of losses they suffer so saying that you shouldn't quit a session even though you've reached your pre-set stop loss is not applicable to everyone and the OP should evaluate his game and make the decision.

And just because you may be playing "real good poker" but still down 3+ buy-ins is not necessarily a reason to continue. Sometimes the table is just wrong for you that night. Sometimes you think you are playing "real good poker" when in fact the guy to your left has a read on you. The point of a stop loss is to use it and go on to play another day.

[TobDog]

Here's my .02 and again, not a professional by any means... If you are going to quit after you have lost a certain amount to keep you from tilting, it is probably good for your bankroll, I know that even the most dilligent of players tends to play longer when stuck and less when ahead, it just kind of gets in your brain. If you are prone to tilting more if you get down a significant amount, you may dent your BR to the point, you shouldn't be playing at the level you are.

[redfisher]

I'm with Mr. Fizzbin here. Games are generally good all the time, the key is to not make a big mistake. Since the biggest mistake most low limit players make is overestimating their abilities, I don't have a problem with a reasonable stop loss. Get up, leave and seriously consider whether you're actually playing as well as you think. Giving up 2 hours of +EV is only a disaster if there won't be another 2 hours of +EV.

I've played guys where I knew I was better than them. In general I was better, but they had picked up exploitable leaks in my game. By getting away from them and thinking about how they were beating me I was able to turn it around.

There's a lot of talk about how "I'm a winning player, blah, blah, blah", but everybody sees somebody who thinks they're a winner lose big every session.

[Rottersod]

It's not even a matter of tilting. If you are a pro then you don't have a stop loss and you play and play. If you are not then setting a SL is good money management IMO. As a previous poster quoted Chip Reese: "there's always another game."

The point to having a set SL is that you leave when you reach it and you leave because you reach it. The reasons why you reach it are irrelevant. It is a line in the sand that you have drawn that makes you comfortable and having piece of mind is a good edge when playing. I'd rather go up against a player who is spewing benjamin's because he knows he's due to go on a roll than a quiet, confident player who is sure of himself.

[jjshabado]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However there will be times you lose 3+ buy ins playing really good poker, in those cases you shouldn't employ a stop-loss policy UNLESS losing money like that seriously effects your game.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an example of another blanket statement that when looked at from the eyes of each individual player doesn't hold up. I really wish that posters would stop and think about making these kind of statements. Everyone has different limits for losses and different tolerances for the types of losses they suffer so saying that you shouldn't quit a session even though you've reached your pre-set stop loss is not applicable to everyone and the OP should evaluate his game and make the decision.

And just because you may be playing "real good poker" but still down 3+ buy-ins is not necessarily a reason to continue. Sometimes the table is just wrong for you that night. Sometimes you think you are playing "real good poker" when in fact the guy to your left has a read on you. The point of a stop loss is to use it and go on to play another day.

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Welcome to an internet forum (not to mention real life) where there is implied context to everything. I assumed people were smart enough to understand my point without having to write 3000 words explaining everything in legal-like detail. But once again somebody proves me wrong.

What I'm talking about when I say "playing good poker" are those times you keep making correct calls based on odds/reads but keep losing. For example, I was at the casino a couple weeks ago where I lost 3 big pots because 1 of only 2-4 possible cards I could lose to, actually came on the river. I was down 40-50BB but kept playing because the game was ridiculously good.

Anyway, my comment was made with the assumptions that a) you can evaluate your edge in the game realistically (ie. you notice that every move you make against player x goes wrong), b) you can evaluate how much tilting you're doing (and how that effects your edge), c) you are sufficiently bankrolled so that losing 3 buy-ins doesn't cripple your poker-playing-funds or effect your day-to-day life

I don't see any of those assumptions as being un-realistic, so I "really wish that posters would stop and think" before being giant dicks.

Edit: Perhaps "giant" is too strong. But there was definitely a dick-ishness in the post I replied to.

[haiau]

Having a stop-loss is a good idea for most players because everyone plays anywhere from a little worse to completely terrible when they are down a significant amount.

Having a stop-win though is not good, since most players who have the confident feeling tend to play much better than the currently stuck players at their tables.

When you are running good/playing good you should stick around and try to win every chip on the table. But the problem is, in NL texas hold'em at least, I find that players tighten up way too much as their stacks get deeper and loosen up too much when their stacks are short. So as u play a tighter and tighter game with a deeper and deeper stack, you play very predictable poker in the eyes of the other players ( no matter how bad they are, they will notice how tight u are ) and they tend to be able to crack your big pairs for a huge pot if you're not careful. So as such, most players when they find themselves with a deep stack tend to play scared and want to leave because they dont want to lose their hard earned chips.

So fix this little problem by learning how to play a much looser game with a deeper stack and you will find that your wins now can be gigantic.

[Hoss1193]

I echo the other posters when I say that a stop-loss is not necessarily a bad idea at all. While I firmly believe the basic premise that a stop-loss is -EV for a truly good player with a significant edge, I also believe that many of us (I include myself) often get ourselves in deeper holes than we should because we overestimate our game or underestimate the competition in a particular given session.

I'm a limit player, not NL, but I think the basic ideas are the same. For me, if I go down, say, 30 or 35 big bets in a relatively short time period, then I really try to look a the game with a fresh set of eyes:

1. Maybe I'm playing like crap. Chasing when I don't QUITE have pot odds, tending toward playing ace-rag in late position, etc.
2. Maybe the competition is better than I think. Folks with very loose starting standards leading to some rather incredible hands shown...but they're actually much better POST-flop than I've given them credit for.
3. Maybe I'm just in a lousy seat relative to other players (rocks/weak-tights on my right, maniacs on my left) and I'm getting sucked into too many pots for more money than my cards are worth.
4. Maybe my table image is shot because I've been losing a lot of showdowns, taking away the profitability of bluffs & semibluffs. Yeah, I know the counter to this is value-betting...but sometimes these things are a little easier said than done.

It takes a lot of discipline to be able to do a truly honest self-assessment and game re-evaluation like this when you're stuck and in the heat of battle. I know I don't have that discipline yet...and neither do I have a stop-loss policy. The result: while I have more winning sessions than losing sessions, my AVERAGE losing session is a bigger $$$ figure (-26 big bets) than my average winning session (+22 big bets). This may sound roughly even, but over 40% of these losing sessions were 40+BB in the red; THOSE are the sessions where in retrospect I simply was NOT playing well, or was in a game significantly tougher than I realized. But I just didn't realize it at the time, and kept plopping more racks on the table. I'm convinced that if I HAD been using some sort of stop-loss policy, my overall results for the year would be substantially better.

So, yeah, I'd say give the stop-loss concept a try, as a short-to-medium term solution while you continue to improve and mature to the point where your game evaluation and honest self-critique render the stop-loss no longer useful.

Separate but related; you commented that you often go up a buy-in or so (+100 @ 1/2NL) early in the game, and than bleed it away. Since that happens a lot, the REAL solution is to find the leaks that are leading you to spew your stack after building it up nicely in early going. Obviously, that will take time, study, honest self-assessment, and experience to truly plug those holes. Use a stop-loss in the meantime to protect your BR while you hone the edge of your game.

Sorry for long-windedness...I'm sure I could have said all this much more succinctly...

[MrFizzbin]

Everybody keeps talking about not having a stop win. I think of my 7 hour barrier is primarily a guide line. Think of it as a major league manager deciding when to pull his starter. If my play is bad or if I'm fatiuged I'd rather leave too soon than too late (hanging a curve ball to give the game winner is the same as pushing all in w. 2nd place hand) costing me a nights profits. Some nights you can go 12 innings some nights its a struggle to go 5, and some you're racked in the first. The important thing is knowing when its time to go to the pen. These are just my guide lines and they work for me.

The important thing is to track your action after every session, take 5 minutes after every session and write 1-5 sentences about what happened that session. Be honest as to why did you win or loose. Like Sun Tzu said 5000 years ago Know your enemy as you know yourself.....

[Alhazred]

This is really (really) geeky, but I do a running narration of all the important pots I play. Some I do right after the hand, but most I do after-session using poker tracker (provided I feel like it). I especially do it in MTTs. This "story" is pasted into my excel worksheet alongside the session stats. I include things I might not remember later by just reading the hand history--like reads, logic, stream-of-consciousness, or whatever. Of course I am brutally honest. I identify major mistakes and copy these hands into a "you f-- idiot!" folder, and the same goes with my "you f-- genius!" folder.

I've found it much more enjoyable than it sounds.

[Hume]

You are probably a losing player. Setting stop-losses will not change that.