6000th Post. Let's Try This Hand Reading Thing Again

[Eagles]

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This seems to be the underlying assumption of the eagles' guy's posts: that a flush is guaranteed to rake in big money whenever you hit with it. But even in this hand, the guy is not stacking us with a made flush, if he has it

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1. We don't need to stack him to get value if he has a flush he has made enough money from us that his flop call is fine.
2. We are better than most people the average donk will donate more money if we are drawing to a flush.

[Eagles]

Drzen,
Nice selective quoting

You quote

sure other hands are possible

My actual quote

Sure other hands are possible but it seems unlikely because he has not shown any interest to get a lot of money in the pot until the river when the flush card hit.

Pudge never said he has a flush 100% of the time but he as a flush a lot here.

Second you seem to think there is a contradiction to folding to a river bet that I said is almost always a value bet. That makes sense, a value bet is almost always a better hand therefore we should fold.

third
If you think calling with a flush draw getting good odds is a mistake. But stacking off with tpnk in a 3 way pot isn't a leak you have to seriously evaluate your game.

[drzen]

[ QUOTE ]
Drzen,
Nice selective quoting

You quote

sure other hands are possible

My actual quote

Sure other hands are possible but it seems unlikely because he has not shown any interest to get a lot of money in the pot until the river when the flush card hit.

Pudge never said he has a flush 100% of the time but he as a flush a lot here.

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He said villain is *never* raising with a worse hand!

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Second you seem to think there is a contradiction to folding to a river bet that I said is almost always a value bet.

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No, I said there is a contradiction to saying that the bet has no fold equity when we folded!

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That makes sense, a value bet is almost always a better hand therefore we should fold.

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A value bet is almost always what the other person *thinks* is a better hand.

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third
If you think calling with a flush draw getting good odds is a mistake. But stacking off with tpnk in a 3 way pot isn't a leak you have to seriously evaluate your game.

[/ QUOTE ]

You said no one ever folds a flush draw on this flop. You did not say no one ever folds a flush draw to this action. Even so, I don't think the odds are "good". If a third heart falls on the turn, you're not likely to get another cent out of it (so your call is -EV). If it doesn't, another bet makes you fold (so your call is -EV).

And dude, way to miss the point! Betting again on the turn is not the same as putting your whole stack in.

[Eagles]

Drzen
Stop being such a [censored] nit especially when you are wrong
I said his raise has LITTLE FE if you are going to dissect my posts word by word and debate every little thing at least get it right.

Okay I was wrong people will fold a flush draw on this flop to a lot of action. LOL you got me way to pwn me based on my grammar. Maybe instead of worrying about nitty mistakes like this you should learn how to play poker.

[drzen]

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Drzen
Stop being such a [censored] nit especially when you are wrong
I said his raise has LITTLE FE if you are going to dissect my posts word by word and debate every little thing at least get it right.

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Okay, my apologies.

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Okay I was wrong people will fold a flush draw on this flop to a lot of action. LOL you got me way to pwn me based on my grammar.

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I'm not trying to pwn anyone. I want better players to *explain* why they think I'm wrong, not just keep saying "you're wrong". I don't become wrong just because pudge or you or BigT or BigT's really good grandma say so. I think plenty of players fold this flop with a flush draw. It depends what draw it is and what they think about you, what you might have, how heavy the future action might be, what the other caller might have.

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Maybe instead of worrying about nitty mistakes like this you should learn how to play poker.

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I'm trying to. It's just unlucky for me I've run into guys who prefer mouthing off to giving a lesson.

[drzen]

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This seems to be the underlying assumption of the eagles' guy's posts: that a flush is guaranteed to rake in big money whenever you hit with it. But even in this hand, the guy is not stacking us with a made flush, if he has it

[/ QUOTE ]

1. We don't need to stack him to get value if he has a flush he has made enough money from us that his flop call is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're working from results backwards. If the turn had not been an ace and you'd bet again, he's not making his money, he is folding. He got lucky.

You said that no one should fold a flush draw on this flop. But how often can you continue after another bet on the turn? I generally assume if I have an FD that the flop bettor will fire again at most turns. How many times will that mean missing with your flush draw, for how much money, and how much will you make when you do hit? You made it this time, but how many times for how much will you make it?

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2. We are better than most people the average donk will donate more money if we are drawing to a flush.

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I find that most "donks" don't give value for a flush. You need them to have made a decent hand too. I agree that the way this hand has turned out, the flushholder would make money from a bad player. But he would consider himself lucky, a/ that an ace came on the turn, which let him have a free shot at his flush and b/ that the hapless donk hit his kicker on the river. I don't count on that happening every time I chase a flush!