Check call this or let it go

MrP · #1 10-31-2006, 04:07 AM

No reads, he has a note now, but previously did not know,
any theoretical or practical knowledge on this would be great

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 5 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, BB folds.

Turn: (2.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

River: (4.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

Saikkonen · #2 10-31-2006, 04:29 AM

preflop: fine.
Flop: You should check first to see if any substantial action occurs after you. Now UTG bet and this is now either a fold or a raise. Since the pot is small I would fold. If the pot was big you should definitely raise to drive out the other players and make it HU. On the turn you should bet too but eventually fold to a raise.

But the pot is small(4sb) and if you raise here a showdown may cost you at least 6 sb or more and UTG could have you beat. On the other side UTG may only have a pocketpair but often people limp in with AJ, A10, A9 or even he has caught a set.

This means that the pot has to be offering you good enough odds to put in about 6SB so I would say if there is about 3 players then the pot should offer you about 7sb to continue maybe more depending on your opponents agression.

Heron · #3 10-31-2006, 05:38 AM

IMO you should fold this preflop but when you decide to play it should be played at least similar to the way you did. Flopping an ace is the reasonable thing to hope for and you cannot fold then to a bettor who might be betting second pair or a medium pocket pair.

pena · #4 10-31-2006, 05:47 AM

I would at least bet on flop with top pair, despite of poor kicker. I'd protect my hand. Maybe I would check raise here. UTG could bet on last position with flush draw, middle, top pair or nothing. I think you have a fair change to have a best hand. So I'd protected it.

Saikkonen · #5 10-31-2006, 05:49 AM

Heron@
actually I think you're right. I've found a leak in my play: If I decide to play and hit I should go for it cause then I shouldn't have called in first place. That's reasonable for me. I just thougt if everybody checks the flop then I am almost sure I am ahead and can safely bet the turn and maybe earn 2BB=4SB on the next streets. But this style as you mention puts me in a very vulnerable position to a bluff.

NIX · #6 10-31-2006, 06:03 AM

Without reads, my default play would be to complete preflop with one limper. Two limpers and I fold. On the flop, I'm leading out and folding to a raise. I'd really only expect someone to raise with an ace or maybe a flush draw. If that happens, the pot is small, so I'm done. If I'm called on the flop, I'm leading the other streets and again folding to a raise.

If I know UTG to be agro, then my other option would be to check/call the flop and turn, then bet/fold the river.

fabadam · #7 10-31-2006, 06:12 AM

Preflop: OK, I usually fold though.

Flop: Bet out, or play the check-raise. I'd just bet.As played you'll never know whether he has your kicker beaten until SD. Without reads, I'd rather check-fold than check-call. If he has an ace, you're only beatign A2,A3 and A4 now.

Turn: consistent at least, you're choosing a WA/WB line.

River: even worse, you're basically playing him for A2,A3, a lower pair that disn't improve.
This is why limping and calling down with Ax is bad: in the long run I guess you're losing approximately 1.5 to 2 BBs with hands like this.

Bet the flop. If he calls, you're probably ahead at this level, otherwise you're in trouble, you can call and check-fold the turn.

Heron · #8 10-31-2006, 06:34 AM

I play at this level daily and according to my observation the betting of UTG doesn't tell us much. He might bet when it's checked to him hoping that everybody missed the flop. When it's bet to him and he raises then he probably really has a good ace but he might call too. He doesn't know how weak our kicker is. Anyway I now think betting the flop is indeed the best play.

ChookMeister · #9 10-31-2006, 06:44 AM

*grunch*

Pre-flop is fine. With no read on UTG, and in a microlimits game, they could have anything. However by completing the small-blind, I like to have an idea of what type of flop I'd like to see. If an ace flops, then would I like to get involved by betting? If not, then why am I playing this hand at all when I can save half a bet by folding?

Flop: We've made top pair, poor kicker. The pot is small. I'd bet here to try and take the pot right away. If I get raised, then it could be that UTG has a flush draw, an ace with a better kicker, an ace with a worse kicker, or is trying to defend their middle pair or pocket pair. I don't mind folding to a raise, since the pot is still small, drawing out is expensive and our position is poor. If I get called then I bet the turn.

I'm happy checking with the intention of a check/raise on the flop. Again, my goal is to win the pot while the betting is cheap. If it does get checked around, then I bet the turn.

Check/calling doesn't give us any information as to whether our hand is good or bad. If UTG limped in with AK-A7, I'd like to get out early rather than call a big bet on the turn and river. I'm particularly worried about AT, it's strong enough that some people will play it from UTG, but weak enough they won't raise with it. AT completely dominates our hand.

On the turn and river, I pretty much don't want to be around without having defined my hand, or a better read on UTG. If I am around (because I bet the turn), then I check/call the river: I don't see our bet folding any better hands, getting raised would be awful, and we're behind to A7 and above.

The only time I check/call down this hand is when I know UTG is a maniac who'll keep betting unless I show strength. Without a read on UTG, this is a dangerous line to take.

CM.

YesMehFriend · #10 10-31-2006, 09:18 AM

I bet the flop. The hand plays completely different from there. But you should generally bet your TP since you have no reason to expect anyone to bet (one of your villains is BB who has almost random cards ...) and no reason to slowplay.
If UTG is somewhat aggressive postflop, your play after the flop-check is fine (but bet the river).

Btw.: Don't you think the pf-call is -ev? I don't call in this spot ...