Rolled 8's in a Big Multi-Way Pot

[RainierBob]

Seat 7 is a loose player but not outrageously so. Seat 8 and Seat 1 are not very good. Seat 2 is an unknown.

On 3rd I didn't 3-bet thinking I wanted lots of people in the pot. But with so many hands with higher cards out against me perhaps I'd have been better off to do so.

On 5th, K and T are pretty dead cards for me, but Seat 7's straight chances look pretty poor also. So I bet out.

Would you call down to the end? My chances of improving are not good.

7 Card Stud High ($1/$2), Ante $0.10, Bring-In $0.50 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.80 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 8: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls

4th Street - (11.30 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (8.15 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 7: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 8: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___folds

6th Street - (14.15 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 7: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

River - (17.15 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 7: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___bets

Total pot: (20.15 BB)

[Brad1970]

Put your foot on the gas at 3rd & don't stop until somebody runs you off the road. I wouldn't care if I won it early, any pot you can drag is a good one...

Seriously, I would call all the way to the river especially since the number of cards that are already dead that would help the other players hands. Seat 7 could have a straight but 3 of the tens are gone (as well as 2 aces) or a club flush is possible.

My gut feeling is that seat 7 is on a river bluff considering the other uncoordinated boards & they checked.

[Wahoo73]

[ QUOTE ]
On 3rd I didn't 3-bet thinking I wanted lots of people in the pot. But with so many hands with higher cards out against me perhaps I'd have been better off to do so.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, in this case you definitely should have capped the betting. Seat #1's raise says he can beat seat #7's and #8's call of the BI. Seat #2's re-raise says he can beat all three of them. Another re-raise by you should then tell seats 7 and 8 that they are in 4th and 5th place in a 5-way race and that to continue by calling three SBs would be foolish. Who knows whether they would actually fold or not, but in this sort of hand it is incumbent upon you to do everything you can to get as much money into the pot and thin the field as quickly as possible. The only weapon you have to do that is to cap the betting on 3rd street.

The same principles that applied on 3rd street still apply on 4th street...you need to raise and re-raise, if necessary, here again to thin the field.

On 5th street, given the way you have passively played your hand, you have given nobody any reason to believe that you had anything better than a pair of 8s to start and your bet indicates nothing more than maybe you having Ts over 8s. Therefore, seat #7 could just as reasonably be raising your bet with Ks over Qs or Qs over Js than anything that beats your hand, and as you noted with Ts as dead as they are seat 7's chances of having a straight are pretty slim. The only hand I see as likely that seat 7 could have that is ahead of you at this point is trip Js. I think I would have re-raised here to find out how strong he really is and if he capped the betting be ready to fold.

But what is particularly telling about 5th street is that both seats #1 and 8 check-fold despite the fact that they both improved their hands?!?!?! This tells you that they were both blowing smoke on 3rd and 4th street and would have been more likely to fold if you had been aggressive earlier.

I see nothing happening on 6th street that changes my mind about seat #7's hand...if he was unlikely to have a straight on 5th street because of the dead Ts then he is still just as unlikely to have a straight now. So given the way you actually played the hand, you don't have much recourse other than to check-call 6th and the river totally blind to what he may actually have. I think you could have completely avoided this bad situation at the end by playing 3rd and 4th streets more aggressively.

[SittingBull]

in this case. However,ur riskier play will probably produce a greater long-term profit. When u do win U will take down relatively hugh pots . These wins will more than compensate u for the many times that U do lose for playing this way.

I believe the Mason/RayZee school of thought would agree with Wahoo;however,the Caro school of thought would agree with UR play. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
SittingBull

[dlorc]

Raise 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th.

[Andy B]

If you raise third street, that should make your hand obvious. That said, this is $1/2, and I imagine that people will come along for the ride anyway. I don't have a problem with flat-caling, though. I do have a problem with check-calling fifth. Three Tens are gone. Do you really think he has a straight? Bet your damned hand already.

[RainierBob]

The main lesson I take from this is to bet my trips aggressively early in this sort of pot with big cards out in several hands.

Seat 7 and Seat 2 both looked very threatening to me on 5th/ 6th -- Seat 7 because of the aggressive betting and Seat 2 because it looked like he had A's and something to go with them. As it turned out, Seat 7 made trip J's on 5th and that was enough. (Seat 2 ended with A's and 6's.) If Seat 7 were a more solid player, when I didn't improve on the River, I think I might have found a fold. I'm not persuaded that raising on either 5th or 6th is a good idea against these high boards both betting strongly and with my limited prospects to improve.

[Andy B]

You may find this difficult to believe, but I had several beers before posting last night. I see that you didn't check-call, but bet and called a raise on fifth. So it turns out that the winner had the one credible hand that beat you--pocket Jacks. I still think that a three-bet was warranted. Don't most folks raise third street with pocket Jacks?

[betgo]

I kind of like the flat call on 3rd. When a king raises and an ace reraises, if you 4-bet, it almost has to be rolled up 8s or concealed aces.

The kings are sort of dead, so what can you be raising with on 4th, but raise anyway. There are so many in the pot. You want to put pressure on weak draws and build the pot. Similarly, you have to jam on 5th.

[RainierBob]

I am a little surprised that Seat 7 didn't raise initially on 3rd -- but he did call a three-bet before the round was over. I really wish I had put in a raise on third & fourth -- I might well have folded out Seat 7. And, even tho it gives my hand away, it lets me know later that, if they bet they have something.

I'm still not convinced I need to raise 5th St. or beyond. I'm obviously a substantial dog against trip J's. If I substitute a Q for a J in Seat 7's hand, I become a favorite, but only by 55%. Does that really justify a raise? I don't think anybody's folding.