Should I have pushed my set on the flop instead of slow-playing?

thisismyback · #1 01-31-2006, 04:01 PM

I agree with H20. I would have pushed on the flop or at least make a large reraise. I think there is to much at stake to risk letting him draw cheap to a flush. You were unlucky but I just feel your hand, despite it's strength, is still vulnerable especially vs the chip leader.

seke2 · #2 01-31-2006, 04:08 PM

I think if you push this flop, you're looking for monsters. You're not going to find a much better slowplay spot. This guy called a UTG raise. Even with his stack, is he doing that with a lot of suited connectors? I doubt it. Two broadway, any pair, yeah, probably. But I don't think you can just assume that Villain is on a flush draw here just because there's one on the board. And basically 3/4 of the cards that could come on the turn won't scare you even if he's on a flush draw. I'd be a little more worried about the straight draw, but once again, most turn cards won't scare you.

I think you need to call this flop and let him build the pot a little more before you spring your trap. And even if he makes a flush, you still have full house outs. There are so few ways this hand can go bad for you and so many it can go well.

People who say that you need to reraise on the flop, do you really think that's maximizing the value of this hand? You have a real concealed monster here.

I think it's incredibly results oriented to say that you should have made a move on the flop here. When I make a set, especially on a board like this where the other guy most often has top pair, I'm looking to do more than just increase my stack by 30%.

h20man65 · #3 01-31-2006, 04:16 PM

Point well taken, but with 750K in the pot I believe putting the pressure on here is correct. Its always better to win a "small" pot than lose a big one.

warnock13 · #4 02-02-2006, 11:21 AM

Thanks for all the input guys. It's really given me a lot to consider.

RichC. · #5 01-31-2006, 04:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This guy called a UTG raise. Even with his stack, is he doing that with a lot of suited connectors? I doubt it. Two broadway, any pair, yeah, probably. But I don't think you can just assume that Villain is on a flush draw here just because there's one on the board.
People who say that you need to reraise on the flop, do you really think that's maximizing the value of this hand? You have a real concealed monster here.
I'm looking to do more than just increase my stack by 30%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is why i disagree with you. If I'm CL, I'm most certainly calling with suited connectors AK-76, and ANY PP. I may very well have a concealed monster and bust someone and add to my increasing stack.

As the Hero, I am wanting to add chips anyway that I can, you cant win the tournament with 6 players left only 2. So I am ok with adding 30% to my stack now and being patient with more poker still to play.

seke2 · #6 01-31-2006, 04:40 PM

Valid points. And I see arguments for pushing the flop. But I think this is way too good of a situation to "waste" ... we've got a chance to double up here and become one of the chip leaders. Nobody is in immediate danger of busting, so we can't be worrying about moving up pay spots.

If we didn't have the results of this hand, I don't so many people would be clamoring for flop aggression. That board isn't that dangerous. Obviously we'd prefer something like rainbow, but this is a nice flop.

I don't want to add 30% to my stack here, I want to double up, or something close to it. I've got a concealed hand capable of really paying big and an opponent on a huge stack who is willing to bet into me. That's perfect. There are so many factors in favor of the slowplay (stack sizes of both players, strength of Hero's hand, how unreadable Hero's hand is, full house outs to an even better hand) and so few (a only slightly scary flop) that suggest we should try to shut down the action on the flop.

Don't think there's a perfect answer here either, I guess it's just more about how much risk Hero is willing to take for a chance to win a huge pot rather than win a small one. I don't think it's a very risky spot for Hero to let Villain see a turn.

hockey coach · #7 01-31-2006, 04:42 PM

I don't think hero has much of a slow play opportunity here at all - w/ this action what second best hand doesn't the villian have now that you hope he picks up on the turn and so will pay you off later but not now?

Here's my take on the action (w/o any read/table dynamics info from OP):

Hero raises UTG - shorthanded table but still UTG - represents a good hand. Villain calls OOP - his range is likely monster (to trap) or something he can hit hard on the flop and get away from otherwise - small pairs, suited connectors. I assume he avoids the trap hands.

Villian leads out w/ a probe sized bet which could mean a few things:

- a standard probe - I don't have much of anything, but you probably don't either so let me take a cheap stab and see if you'll go away (if OP had said he'd been very aggro postflop I'd dismiss this option) and if you don't I'm not putting anything else in this (cause if I was planning on firing multiple shells on a bluff I'd fire a bigger one here)

- a semi-bluff - I have a decent draw but don't want to take it to the felt and I know you'll have to bet if I check and that'll price me out so let me try a block (and I may win right here so all hail the semi-bluff)

- bait for a trap w/ his own monster (especially if OP has been aggro postflop)

Given this I might as well bet right now - I'm not getting any more money from the first case unless he hits a miracle card (which very well may beat me), I don't want second case in cheap, third case we're getting it all in anyway.

Raise it up.

HC

h20man65 · #8 01-31-2006, 04:51 PM

Well said, like your take. Tnx.

seke2 · #9 01-31-2006, 04:54 PM

Hmm. Great post. Time to go back and look at some of my hand histories where a slowplay went wrong and see if I'm the leaky one. Thanks HC.

RichC. · #10 01-31-2006, 05:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm. Great post. Time to go back and look at some of my hand histories where a slowplay went wrong and see if I'm the leaky one. Thanks HC.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did this as well. Thats why I make the move that I suggested. I also agree with you that yes you are looking to double up, but bottom set, while a greatly concealed hand, especially in this hand given the UTG raise, is still bottom set.

One other option yet to be explored, Open limp UTG. While somewhat fishy or suspicious, give it a phrase, might induce someone with KJ or other small PP to limp behind or even raise. You will of course call any reasonable raise, and let the aggression begin post flop. Its an option, not the best but something that could have been done in this case.