Is God "just"?

[IronUnkind]

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In many cases, to logically refute the atheist position (or even attempt to) would take so much effort and clarification and bickering that it isn't worth it. Even if they refuted the atheists, it would be a pyrrhic victory. This may have been one of those threads - I certainly made a lot of assumptions and used them as premises in my initial post, which is sometimes a conversation killer.

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You make an important point here, and it's quite true as far as it concerns me. In fact, I wanted to respond to your initial post, but I didn't want to spend the time unpicking its presuppositions.

[kurto]

Everything you do has an infinite amount of consequences, no?
(and those consequences are infinitely good and bad)

[madnak]

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In many cases, to logically refute the atheist position (or even attempt to) would take so much effort and clarification and bickering that it isn't worth it. Even if they refuted the atheists, it would be a pyrrhic victory. This may have been one of those threads - I certainly made a lot of assumptions and used them as premises in my initial post, which is sometimes a conversation killer.

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You make an important point here, and it's quite true as far as it concerns me. In fact, I wanted to respond to your initial post, but I didn't want to spend the time unpicking its presuppositions.

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I see. I'll have to keep that in mind and not get so carried away.

[slik]

Is this possible if time is finite?

[FortunaMaximus]

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Is this possible if time is finite?

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Yeah, I think so. Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem can be expressed in finite language.

[dknightx]

hell != enternal suffering

we need to distinguish what is actually written in the bible vs interpretation of scripture used to control the masses. BTW, it is just because God can not, by his nature, be with sin, therefore you can only be with God if you are "washed clean" of this sin. "hell" is simply being seperate from God. Eventually God will destroy the devil ... what happens then? I have no idea, but its an interesting thing to think about.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
hell != enternal suffering

we need to distinguish what is actually written in the bible vs interpretation of scripture used to control the masses. BTW, it is just because God can not, by his nature, be with sin, therefore you can only be with God if you are "washed clean" of this sin. "hell" is simply being seperate from God. Eventually God will destroy the devil ... what happens then? I have no idea, but its an interesting thing to think about.

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I'd be grateful if there was ANY consensus on what exactly Christians mean by hell. I know there is plenty of waffling on the issue...how can you say it isn't eternal suffering? Can you get out eventually? How long? I don't think I've ever heard anyone say hell was only temporary. Got any support for this?

[dknightx]

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I'd be grateful if there was ANY consensus on what exactly Christians mean by hell. I know there is plenty of waffling on the issue...


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which is why the church is split into a bazillion demoninations (and sub-demoninations). As humans we too often try to use our own understanding of the WORLD and apply it to God ... doesn't really work that way even though we THINK it should (ironic?)

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how can you say it isn't eternal suffering? Can you get out eventually? How long?

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Unfortunately I don't have the answers you are looking for. You should probably try to find them yourself ... the best way is to read the bible, in particular revelations. Unfortunately, most of revelations won't make sense to you unless you've read the bible and have a pretty strong understanding of its concepts. Most people do not (including myself). I know that the bible has references to "enternal punishment" (even Jesus says this himself: "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."), but theres more than just the literal meaning to a lot of this.

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I don't think I've ever heard anyone say hell was only temporary. Got any support for this?

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Eventually God will destroy the devil:

"devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

I think this is part of the reason of the interpretation of "enternal suffering". On one hand, the devil will be sent to a place with enternal suffering, but there really isn't any mention of those who did not accept Christ during their HUMAN life ... punishment and suffering are two different things.

Unfortunately, again, i do not have all the answers you are looking for. Just wanted to add something ... people have this misconception that God will "blindly" judge all non-believers (and believers) the same ... that is not the case. A child who has never heard of God != a person who has had multiple oppurtunities to hear the gospel and refuses. In addition a person who lives their whole life for good may be more "just" in Gods eyes then someone who claims to believe in God, but doesn't live his life that way.

anyways, i do not understand christianity enough to give you all the answers you are looking for ... but in the same regard, it seems foolish to simplify christianity based very minimal experience and exposure to it. (its like saying i understand poker because i watch the WSOP on tv)

[AthenianStranger]

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[ QUOTE ]
hell != enternal suffering

we need to distinguish what is actually written in the bible vs interpretation of scripture used to control the masses. BTW, it is just because God can not, by his nature, be with sin, therefore you can only be with God if you are "washed clean" of this sin. "hell" is simply being seperate from God. Eventually God will destroy the devil ... what happens then? I have no idea, but its an interesting thing to think about.

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I'd be grateful if there was ANY consensus on what exactly Christians mean by hell. I know there is plenty of waffling on the issue...how can you say it isn't eternal suffering? Can you get out eventually? How long? I don't think I've ever heard anyone say hell was only temporary. Got any support for this?

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Go read about it, if you really want to know. I've quoted this article twice already:

The River of Fire