64s - Huge Pot Shenanigans

SixForty · #1 10-11-2006, 03:21 AM

Okay, so 64s is a special favourite hand for me (SixForty - 64, makes sense) Sentimental reasons. I play a little bit looser than normal with this hand, and I like to see flops with it, in spots that maybe I shouldn't. I justify it by saying it helps cultivate a weaker image! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Live 10/20 game - 10 handed, loose/aggressive. Typically 5-7 to a flop for one bet each, or 3-5 to a flop if raised.

Reads:
UTG+1 - semi-tight/passive, weak. I play against her on a regular basis, probably 2 out of 3 times I play. She plays here every day, and is predictable, easily readable, and an almost regular donator.
UTG+2 - complete unknown, only seem him play 3 or 4 hands since he sat down, and nothing special of note
MP3 - loose/very-aggressive, passive preflop, but likes to bet and raise post flop. Likes to bluff scare cards, fired a 3 street bluff into my AA earlier on a TT4 two suited flop, only to show down a KQo unimproved with no draw.
CO - relative unknown, seems average as far as loose-tightness and passive-aggressiveness
Button - very-loose/semi-aggressive. He keeps buying in for 5 big bets and then going broke, or 10 big bets, and going broke. Very weak player. Once he gets a hand, he'll raise preflop and keep firing until he meets resistance that is strong enough to convince him he may not be best, then he calls down. Always continuation bets, regardless of the board. Note: when Button raised preflop, I took note of the fact that he barely had enough chips left to put a bet in on every street, so he'll likely be all-in at some point in this hand.
BB - very-loose/aggressive. Likes to play most hands, and will cold-call almost any raise, just to get involved in big pots. Has taken a couple of shots with bluff raises before. He's bet bottom pair all the way. And he's called down a preflop 3-bettor on an AQJ-J-3 board with pocket 5's

I was pretty much planning on check/folding the flop, but since it got checked around.......

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, MP3 3-bets, CO calls, Button caps, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (7 players, 28.5 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Turn: (7 players, 14.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, BB raises, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls which puts him all in.

River: (4 players, 22.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BB checks, Hero bets . . .

Okay - so some people will have lots to say about preflop. But let's forget about all that. I've heard it all before! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Let's not worry about how we got into this situation. I'd like to know how people would play from the flop on.

m80smusic · #2 10-11-2006, 03:46 AM

In my experience (very little compared to most here), when a blind or early position player checks a flop with a tiny pair out there, and raises turn, he got a big piece of it. I might call turn, check river. with 4 ppl in there, I think someone is at least calling down with a king.

in short...I don't see 4's being good here very often at all

just my opinion

JJH3984 · #3 10-11-2006, 04:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In my experience (very little compared to most here), when a blind or early position player checks a flop with a tiny pair out there, and raises turn, he got a big piece of it. I might call turn, check river. with 4 ppl in there, I think someone is at least calling down with a king.

in short...I don't see 4's being good here very often at all

just my opinion

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't have to be. I like the bet on the river cuz the pot is so huge. There is some chance you have all-in beat, and some chance you get villian to fold a better hand. What do you do if somoene bets the flop?

Gazzbut · #4 10-11-2006, 06:22 AM

Id say its highly likely that someone, probabaly button, has QQ,JJ or TT and got scared by the K on the flop. Since they made it to the river its highly unlikely they will fold for 1. I would have ditched this on the turn.

edit: I would have checked and called 1 back to me and folded river UI....maybe c/c on the river depending on the action! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

SeaEagle · #5 10-11-2006, 09:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There is some chance you have all-in beat, and some chance you get villian to fold a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
What better hands are calling 2 bets on the turn but folding for 1 more when a rag rivers in a 23BB pot?

James. · #6 10-11-2006, 09:42 AM

the pot is freaking huge on the turn, did you consider 3betting to clear the field? that would also set up a possible river check behind or valuebluff based on BB's mannerisms.

Harv72b · #7 10-11-2006, 12:46 PM

I don't play live, and I'm well aware that there are certain dynamics of that game which I don't understand. But seriously, what on Earth was the point of your turn bet?

The pot is huge, your bet screams "I just want you all to fold so I can take this down", and because of these factors, there is pretty much zero chance that a hand with 6 outs, let alone one that's already ahead of you, is going to fold. You're not protecting your hand, and given all the action preflop, you probably don't have a hand worth protecting anyway.

What really worries me here, though, is that your short-stacked buddy on the Button who capped it up preflop and who "always continuation bets", checked it through on the flop. Why on Earth wouldn't he make his bet on the flop, especially since he's only got 2 BBs left & clearly loves his hand?

The river bet just seems ridiculous. There's a huge protected pot that nobody's going to fold any made hand in, and if we assume that Button can beat a pair of fours (I think a safe assumption given his suspicious passive play on the flop & turn), then we're betting into an empty side pot with a hand that is only going to be called by better hands, and is very unlikely to get any of those to fold.

What puzzles me even more is that you're betting into MP3, a player who you say loves to bluff. If you think your fours & threes, no kicker, has a snowball's chance of winning this thing, then why not give him an opportunity to put a bet in with a worse hand?

SixForty · #8 10-11-2006, 02:50 PM

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'm going to give my thoughts on the hand.

I was very surprised that the flop got checked around. Button loves to continuation bet. If Button had any King, he'd bet. If he had any pocket pair, like QQ or 77, he'd bet. IF he had KK for the flopped full house, or 33 for quads, he'd bet. He really doesn't seem the type to slowplay. I even think he'd fire with AQ here most of the time. (I had seen him fire AX overcards to the river before.) So when Button checks the flop, I'm pretty confident that he has AX no pair.

When it gets checked to me on the turn, I figure that I have to bet. BB is aggressive, and I'm pretty sure he bets any pair after the flop gets checked around. In fact, he'd lead the flop with almost any King, any 3, and even pocket pairs. Since he's checked twice, I'm ahead of him. UTG+1 would check a King on the flop, but would bet it on the turn. UTG+2 is unknown, but has checked twice.

When it gets to me on the turn, I think there's a good enough chance that I may be best here. I also think that a lot of hands will have two overcards to my pair of 4's, (something like a JT for example) and will have odds to call with a 6 outer, but will incorrectly fold thinking they have much less than 6 outs. I know Button is going to see the river, but if I can get others to fold, I've got a much better chance.

So I fire a bet. MP3's call doesn't surprise me - he'd call with any ace here, trying to hit it. He also may have picked up a draw on the turn. Button only calling pretty much confirms for me that he's just got a strong Ace High.

When BB checkraised, I sat there for a moment and tried to figure out what that meant. He had two opportunities to bet previously, and checked both times. For a guy who likes to bet, this made no sense. After the flop gets checked around, he has no reason to think he can get a checkraise in on the turn. With his tendency to take shots at pots, I figured that he might be bluffing here. Maybe he picked up a diamond draw and is trying to buy the pot on the turn. Anyway, getting 19-1, with the chance that I'm best and the draw to a two-outer full-house, the pot was big enough to call.

(Looking back now, I think James idea of 3-betting might be better if I decide to continue. To be honest, I didn't really think about it hard enough at the time, and I sort of wimped out! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

On the river, when BB checks, I think there is a good enough chance that he was bluffing the turn. I'm sure that I'm ahead of Button often enough. So I figured firing one last bet out there may be worth it to try and fold a better hand from MP3 or BB, any small or medium pocket pair above my pair of 4's. Does it have a chance? Or is it desperation going a bit overboard?

JJH3984 · #9 10-11-2006, 03:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is some chance you have all-in beat, and some chance you get villian to fold a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
What better hands are calling 2 bets on the turn but folding for 1 more when a rag rivers in a 23BB pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point.

gezuz · #10 10-11-2006, 04:36 PM

were you tilting or something?