flop decision

[thirddan]

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PFR is fine, I'd make it maybe 50-75% of the time, depending on the lineup.

This is a clear flop bet IMO. If nobody has anything to call with, fine. Just be happy to take it down. I see no reason to get tricky here. I'd also bet if I raised with KQs, KJs, TT, etc.

If I didn't raise PF, I'd be much more inclined to check the flop.

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i would raise KQs and KJs preflop here 100% of the time, but im not betting this flop with either of them...can you go into why you think betting here with those hands is good?

i dont even know if i would bet this flop without at least an A...i think a problem with betting this board w/o an A is that you will get called and have no idea where you stand, i would much rather check and watch the action that unfolds...

for the actual hand i raise it some of the time, don't know a percent prob depends on my mood/table image blah blah...having raised preflop i would just bet out, if i had just completed preflop i would c/r...

[private joker]

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Checking the flop would be fine if you could depend on someone in LP to bet it;

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What about EP? Do you really care who bets this flop?

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Yeah, if EP bets and gets a bunch of calls, a checkraise is going to keep everyone in the pot. With TPGK, I'd like to narrow the field as quickly as possible in this pot. This is why bloating the pot with AQo preflop OOP creates trouble.

[vmacosta]

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Yeah, if EP bets and gets a bunch of calls, a checkraise is going to keep everyone in the pot...This is why bloating the pot with AQo preflop OOP is so profitable.

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FYP

But seriously, I would just bet the whole way--no point in getting fancy when its a live game limp festival.

[alleatoryage]

The pre-flop raise is marginal. You're building a multi-way pot OOP with a hand that doesn't play super duper multi-way. I would just call the small blind.

As far as the check raise goes... I would only do it if you think you can raise someone betting from late position. The pot is already somewhat large and it's nice to blow some people off this fairly dry flop. But since there's no indication that this is what will happen if you check, and since you bet pre-flop, you might as well just bet again (bascially announcing you hit top pair). This should get most of these folks out of the hand and you are well on your way to picking up a reasonable pot.

Edit: Didn't read the other responses first. All of this has already been covered. whoops.

[MacGuyV]

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Also, once someone calls your flop bet on this board you can c/r the turn which is always fun.

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Yes, seems like a good spot for a screwplay.

[sharpie]

I'd probably complete PF and raise OTB.

[jfk]

I agree with the non-automatic line of thinking on the PF raise. Yes, you almost certainly have the best hand right now but your advantage is not great. While putting extra money in the hand is correct when holding the best hand, you're doing so with a hand that does not play particularly well multiway (as others have pointed out). You're giving implied odds to all sorts of hands to continue drawing after the flop and protecting your hand becomes considerably more difficult playing this from EP with the raise. Plus, you have to hit a flop to continue.

You flopped the driest of boards here for a AQ holding so your PF raise looks great but most of the time you've bloated the pot enough to keep all sorts of longshots hanging around against a field who'll wait and expect you to take the lead.

As you played it I believe you need to bet the flop unless you can count on someone in LP to represnt the A (or hopefully hold an A). Had you not raised you could've check raised either the flop or turn with that sort of board (and assuming a K doesn't hit the turn).

AQo and AJo and similar used to be an automatic raise for me in most circumstances. I've learned to vary my play in these loose games with these hands and it has yielded superior results.

Raising with AQo can't be characterized as a mistake in these situations. There's still a good case to be made for raising, but a better the hand usually plays better against fields this big without the raise.

[Goodnews]

Off topic: Hi first post here, I like this forum much better since the responses are much better than most of the micro forum.

jfk: there is no protecting your hand on this flop, making it 8.5:1 (or better) doesnt really change whether or not someone can draw to their 5 outer.

Would it be a cruel mistake to check/call this flop and wait for a safe card? Simply because if someone is going to call 8.5:1 then they are calling 14:1 also... Might as well step on the gas when the turn hits and force a greater mistake.

FWIW, I am raising this hand PF all the time in this situation. I don't like it (for reasons stated above), but +EV is +EV.

[jfk]

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jfk: there is no protecting your hand on this flop, making it 8.5:1 (or better) doesnt really change whether or not someone can draw to their 5 outer.

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It is much harder to protect with the preflop raise, but that's not the real point.

In raising the advantage is that you stand to have the best hand and you're trying to punish those who've incorrectly limped. That's a +EV move, though the edge you may enjoy here is relatively small.

In calling, you're sacrificing this small preflop edge in order to exploit a larger edge later in the hand.

With AQo, you must hit the flop in order to win the pot. AQ will flop at least a pair about a third of the time. With a pot of 7BB, players can correctly draw to 3 and 4 outers profitably where they couldn't have done so without the preflop raise. (There are no apparent 4 outers on the OP's flop, so this is a hypothetical 4 outs).

Your typical loose opponent makes a lot of mistakes in calling preflop. Those mistakes are ameliorated as more players enter the pot. This is termed schooling. When seven players are contesting a pot your top pair type hand is now giving implied odds against this large field. You're not playing a hand which fairs well in a mulitway pot and you'll have a hard time cutting down the field as they'll naturally expect you to take the lead in betting. That the AQ is OOP in this hand is another strike against it. Having raised the pot preflop makes a loose opponent's natural inclination to go too far with hands correct in this instance whereas those drawing to three outers will be making a postflop mistake in the unraised pot.

Your AQ may be ahead in a seven handed unraised pot (among passive, predictable players), but it may not be much. The edge against a hand like pocket sixes (a favorite against AQ) or KTs is not so significant that it is a mistake to wait to exploit that edge later in the hand.

Should the OP have limped, the strength of his hand is concealed. His equity edge is now likely to be very large with that very dry flop. The only hands he fears are sets of sevens and deuces or an unlikely two pair. With this concealed hand and the relative position enjoyed by checking from the SB he can now get a very good feel for whether the flop or turn is the best spot for a move. He can more easily manipulate the pot size and get a better sense for how and when to knock out players.

Not raising lets loose opponents to make mistakes in small pots rather than profitable calls in big pots and it makes the hand much easier to play for the person holding AQo.

Raising preflop can and will be profitable, but in most fields this big, making a move later in the hand will be more profitable.