Theory: rep a big hand preflop from the blinds and an ace hits

soah · #1 10-04-2006, 05:06 AM

This thread is for discussing times when you represent a premium hand preflop out of position. For the most part, this refers to raising from the blinds vs multiple limpers, reraising from the blinds, and in some cases limp/reraising (at a full table). Basically I am looking at places where your range will be approximately TT+ and AK (and sometimes air). Sometimes slightly looser, sometimes slightly tighter. Also, the amount of money that goes in preflop will be rather significant in relation to total stack sizes.

At some point in time I realized that when you are representing TT+/AK and you bet at a flop with an ace on it, your opponents will very rarely make mistakes against you. Since the goal of poker is to force mistakes, this sucks for us.

The theory that I have been mulling over for quite some time is that when you are in this position and an ace comes on the flop, you should always check.

I came to this conclusion via some round-about reasoning.

Obviously, we have all had times when we've had KK/QQ and we get a lot of money in preflop knowing we are ahead, and the stupid ace comes. I've normally been a proponent of just going ahead and betting anyway, because we don't want to give away information about our hands (checking bad flops, betting good flops) and we will find out where we are at pretty quickly and we won't have to worry about making bad laydowns or bad calldowns.

However, quite some time ago when I had posted some hands like this (in SSNL, before MSNL existed) I got a lot of replies saying to check the flop in the hands that I had posted. There were obviously merits to this -- if I bet the flop, my opponents play perfectly. If I check, I at least give them the chance to bluff at it (although I risk them taking free cards).

But I was concerned abuot balancing my play. If I bet there with AK and AA, and check with the rest, I am giving away information. Of course, if this is the ONLY leak in my game, then it probably wouldn't matter, but I'd like to keep ALL of my play clean, so that good players don't pick up on things that they can exploit.

While pondering this, I was reminded of another leak that lots of poor players have -- they always continuation bet, EXCEPT when they flop the nuts. When these players raise and then check the flop, I just shut down entirely and wait for a chance to fold. So that's when it hit me -- in order to balance my play in these spots, I don't have to bet all the time... I can balance my play by checking everytime. People are not necessarily going to assume that I am scared of the ace if I check... they will be worried that I am trying to trap them. A check/call, or a check followed by a half-pot turn bet will look pretty scary to observent players. So from this line you maximize the chances of picking up some money from worse hands that will bluff, and you also can get a pretty good feel for where you're at in the hand for the same amount of money that you would have spent betting the flop yourself. Many times, they will have a similar goal as you: to get to showdown cheaply (with a worse hand). If they have a big hand, they may worry your hand sucks and try to sucker you in -- which also keeps the pot small for you. When they actually do bet hard -- depending on the specific player involved -- they could just have air, hoping to blow you off of JJ.

And here is a hand where I felt that aggression would be -EV.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP ($893.55)
Button ($605)
Hero ($384)
BB ($246)
UTG ($490.40)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, Button raises to $16, Hero raises to $50, 1 fold, Button calls $34.

Flop: ($104) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $52, Hero calls $52.

Turn: ($208) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $140, Hero calls $140.

River: ($488) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: $488

Results in white below: 
Button has Jh Qh (high card, ace).
Hero has Ac Qd (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins $488.

JaBlue · #2 10-04-2006, 05:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
when you are representing TT+/AK and you bet at a flop with an ace on it, your opponents will very rarely make mistakes against you.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is all you need to say [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

and... uhh... duh!

Reissumies · #3 10-04-2006, 05:51 AM

Unless you sometimes on turn push also hands other than ones with A in it. Opponent usually needs 2 pair or better to call turn push in a pot where hero has raised big OOP and opponent has called large flop bet.

DonkBluffer · #4 10-04-2006, 07:12 AM

Nice post soah.

I think you just fixed some leaks of mine. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

ddubois · #5 10-04-2006, 08:41 AM

There's probably other factors that should impact your at play: The drawiness of the flop, your opponent's range of A's that he could have, his aggressiveness.

When I have the big underpair, it is in some ways better to have my continuation bet raised and fold than it is to check call a few times and get shown A9.

Teph · #6 10-04-2006, 12:15 PM

Mix that in with a small (1/4-1/3 pot) blocking bet on the river and you have yourself a fun line to stack air [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

thedustbustr · #7 10-04-2006, 12:27 PM

and get stacked by better, because air is all we beat that raises an inducer

Teph · #8 10-04-2006, 12:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
and get stacked by better, because air is all we beat that raises an inducer

[/ QUOTE ]

Weak ace calls instead of checking river. (only drawback is if they had bet more on river, which is kind of unlikely a lot of the time)

Bigger ace calls instead of betting more (usually)

Air basically needs to raise here.

Better hand is betting river here if you check, and you are check calling anyways using this theory.

I don't get whats wrong with my line, it works pretty well against unknowns.

thedustbustr · #9 10-04-2006, 12:55 PM

nothing is wrong with it vs unknowns. i'm just referring to your diction - you talk about stacking air, but a lot of the times he pushes over you, he doesn't have air.

Teph · #10 10-04-2006, 12:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
nothing is wrong with it vs unknowns. i'm just referring to your diction - you talk about stacking air, but a lot of the times he pushes over you, he doesn't have air.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is read dependant, thinking he is FOS. This is not recommended if you have no idea where you are at in a hand.