So How Many Of You Will Still Purchase 2+2 Books?

[Mr.K]

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In fact they have made a positive difference by hosting this legislation forum here for us to try to make a difference. That actually means a lot.


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The problem with giving people something like this Legislation Forum (not the whole twoplustwo forums) is that they expect you give them more afterwards. I'm not aware of any other place on the internet where those who oppose this legislation were able to communicate with as large a group of interested listeners as this place. But, the posters here just take what they've been given for granted.

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Dynasty, this is an interesting point, but I am not sure I agree. I could be convinced, though, and will definitely listen to all sides as this discussion unfolds.

The matter at hand is not about 2+2 publishing "giving" a group of people a forum and then facing expectations to do more as a result. The matter is, rather, that David and Mason, and to a lesser extent Mat, were leaders in the poker world who were uniquely equipped to make a difference in the legislative debate, and they chose not to take action. I want to emphasize that while there are many leaders in the poker world, few were as well poised to make a difference as the 2+2 folks, because unlike Greg Raymer or other pros, 2+2 has a mailing list ten miles long of user e-mails, and it has forums that can reach thousands upon thousands of users with the click of a mouse. Putting those resources to work would have been both easy and at least somewhat effective (depending on how one defines success).

As I said before, we all owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to David, Mason, and Mat for hosting these forums and advancing the state of the game through their thoughtful books. We also owe these three (and their mods/staff!) a lot of respect for operating the forums. These things are not givens, and we shouldn't treat them as such. Furthermore, nobody can or should expect David & Co to be lobbyists -- that's not their trade, and they are well within their rights in sticking to what they do best (publish books and play cards).

With that all in mind, there truly were no-cost options on the table that could've activated thousands of players earlier in the process, and they weren't taken. That's the problem I have -- though I will admit it isn't a major problem. I do think Mason's rather obtuse responses compounded my frustration a little, but I do want to take care to say I understand some of the points he made -- I just didn't care for the way he made them. For all I know, he's a great guy and he means well, and I do hope nobody resorts to ad hominem attacks here regardless of how they feel.

Look, all told this is what it is. 2+2 didn't have a huge role in it, and even if they maxed out their efforts, everything may have ended up the same. Those expressing frustration towards 2+2's management may be misguided, or they may not, but I do not think anyone can argue that there were actions that could have been easily taken that weren't. That's the point.

[Dynasty]

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Give me a break. What is the cost of setting up an extra forum?

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Since when is this about the monetary contributions any person or organizations has made?

Two Plus Two provided a service which nobody else was capable of providing. It was used extensively by others to rally efforts against the legislation. Without this forum, I doubt you would have had nearly as effective of a rallying point.

[shmigheghi]

No use getting in a big huff about it if we couldn't have done anything. Believe it or not, this issue may be bigger than Sklansky and Malmuth.

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

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Give me a break. What is the cost of setting up an extra forum?

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Since when is this about the monetary contributions any person or organizations has made?

Two Plus Two provided a service which nobody else was capable of providing. It was used extensively by others to rally efforts against the legislation. Without this forum, I doubt you would have had nearly as effective of a rallying point.

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2+2 produces a great product. I own 10 of their books and have made 76[[censored]]hundred posts here on their internet forum. It's because they produce a great product that the best poker players cluster here, and it's because those poker players cluster here that we've had the best public discussion on the impending regulations.

I'm thankful that 2+2 exists, just like I'm thankful that Boston Beer Company exists so I can drink the Sam Adams in front of me right now insead of Miller Lite. But both things are commodities, and I think the insinuation that Mason is generous to give us this forum is off-kilter. This forum exists to sell books (and to a much lesser extent click-thru advertising).

[SomethingClever]

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In fact they have made a positive difference by hosting this legislation forum here for us to try to make a difference. That actually means a lot.


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The problem with giving people something like this Legislation Forum (not the whole twoplustwo forums) is that they expect you give them more afterwards. I'm not aware of any other place on the internet where those who oppose this legislation were able to communicate with as large a group of interested listeners as this place. But, the posters here just take what they've been given for granted.

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I don't hold anything against 2p2, or Mason or David. But it seems like it would have been in their own self interest to do as much as possible.

I know I have extremely little use for this site and their books if the law passes. Live poker makes me want to kill myself and others.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

more than anything, 2+2, as a major force in the internet poker world, could have taken a leadership stance in this fight. So could have Party, Stars, et al. It's dissapointing none of them did.

[Dids]

I'm not sure David and Mason could have made much of a difference, but it's more annoying to see them just seem to refuse to take this seriously.

They didn't need to talk to a lawyer, they just needed to read this thread in their very own forum and they didn't even spend an hour to do that when it's really in their best interest that online poker stay viable, as that's where booksales come from. If anything, they've gut off their own nose to spite their face.

(mind you that this is the same company that's had a virus on their site for 2 weeks with little action, so it's not shocking)

[4_2_it]

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more than anything, 2+2, as a major force in the internet poker world, could have taken a leadership stance in this fight. So could have Party, Stars, et al. It's dissapointing none of them did.

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I agree that 2+2 and other publishers could have been more proactive, but I really can't see how the sites could done more. They are foreign corporations. They cannot make political contributions and if they were active, they offer proponents of the ban a perfect angle to exploit.

Nope, poker players needed to take the lead here and the one lobbying org for them, the PPA, failed miserably. I blame PPA much more than 2+2 or anyone else. They had millions and couldn't get one senator publicly in our corner on this.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

Party is a multi-billion dollar corporation making around 80% of it's profits from the US. They could and should have figured something out...just b/c they are foreign doesn't make it impossible for them to influence things here.

[gumpzilla]

I'm just very skeptical that anything could have been done, especially on the timescales involved here. Various Christian coalitions are going to be a lot more powerful than a ragtag bunch of gamblers, mostly because they're a known quantity. I also have a hard time seeing most politicians (outside of Nevada) wanting to be associated with a gambling lobby. (Horse racing is different.)