I don't understand how torture works AT ALL

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you realize college hazings are worse than whats currently being done to these detainees? Someone should notify the UN and the Red Cross that US college fraternities are violating common article 3 of the Geneva Conventions.

[/ QUOTE ]

First... you shouldn't speak for all Fraternities. Because certainly most aren't worse. Unless you're suggesting that they're trying to ply info from our prisoners by making them shotgun cans of beer.

Though there are hazings (fraternities and otherwise) who go a lot farther. Are those the ones you mean? If so, I'm not sure why you think this makes torture okay. After all, these fraternities and athletes are (1) idiots and (2) breaking the law. So good point on your part.

Does this help make your point? This sure doesn't sound like torture...
[ QUOTE ]
According to the research presented by Hank Nuwer (1990), journalist and author of several books related to hazing, hazing has been associated with more than 50 deaths in college fraternities and countless more physical injuries including paralysis, not to mention the devastating emotional effects that can result for so many young men and women.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Hazing is often winked at as a benign initiation ritual, but it has a tendency to spiral out of control, as it did in the horrific events at Long Island's Mepham High. A 6'2", 245-pound senior sat on a 145-pound jayvee player while a hulking junior linebacker pulled down the player's shorts, dipped a broomstick in Mineral Ice - an ointment that burns when applied to sensitive skin - and forcibly sodomized him. They sodomized three players at least 10 times.



[/ QUOTE ]

Here's a list of hazings from a hazing blog....

[ QUOTE ]
1923
Hobart College (New York)
Freshman Hazing

Two senior football players were expelled after freshman Lloyd Hyde was beaten and thrown into Seneca Lake. Three other senior athletes received lesser punishments.

1928
University of Texas (non-athletic hazing; included because death of athlete)
Delta Kappa Epsilon
Fraternity hazing (athlete involved)

Pledge Nolte McElroy, 19, a UT football player, died from electrical shock. Members asked him to crawl through mattresses charged with electrical current.

1975
University of Nevada, Reno
Sundowners (subrosa club heavy with athletes)
Drinking initiation death

Wolfpack football player John Davies died in an alcohol-related initiation. A grand jury blasted
members but no one was charged with a crime.

1976
University of Texas
Texas Cowboys school-and-athletic spirit club

Members brained an initiate with wooden boards, and he was taken to an intensive care unit.

1978
Alfred University (New York)
Klan Alpine

Chuck Stenzel, a new pledge who hoped to join this fraternity which contained many lacrosse players, a major interest of his, died following a traditional Tapping Night for the chapter that included being locked in a trunk and given huge amounts of alcohol.

1979
Harvard University (Massachusetts)
Pi Eta

Paul Callahan, 22, a former Harvard basketball player, was paralyzed after a wrestling match which occurred following initiation ceremonies between new initiates and actives on a beer-coated linoleum floor.

1980
University of Michigan
Hockey
Alcohol-related hazing--severe

Michigan’s athletic director castigated hazers (“Our practice is not to tolerate hazing in any
form,” said athletic director Don Canham) who shaved a player’s pubic hair, stripped him, locked him in a trunk, drove around and then dumped him at a residence hall. He was drunk and covered with foodstuffs. Four others were initiated. It was cold, and an R.A. said the player had turned blue.

1980
University of South Carolina
Sigma Nu

Barry Ballou, who had been hazed in high school as a rookie football player, died following a drinking-related initiation run in part by an alumnus.

1981
Toms River, New Jersey
Soccer team tradition of initiating first-year players

Rookie soccer players said they were physically and vigorously pummeled during a long-tolerated school ritual known as “Freshman Kill Day.”


1983
Nogales High School (Arizona)
athletic hazing court case

Seven junior varsity players from Nogales High School in Arizona said that they had been assaulted by older baseball players in the back of the team bus. Coaches were acquitted in 1984 court case but had to give up their positions.

1984
American International College (Massachusetts)
Local fraternity (heavily weighted with athletes)
Alcohol-related hazing death

Jay Lenaghan died in a 1984 marathon drinking hazing for his fraternity; many, like Jay, were athletes. Many were football players.

1985
Lowell High School (Massachusetts)
Physical hazing
Injury

After two hockey players suffered serious injuries, the school superintendent merely banned practices run by hockey team captains until the victim’s parents protested, prompting five suspensions of veteran players.

1985-1986 season
Scotts Valley (CA)
Water Polo hazing

With the assistance of the Committee to Halt Useless College Killings, a Scotts Valley anti-hazing activist fought hazing after his son was subjected to physical and emotional hazing. He charged that water polo hazing could be tracked seven years. He said there were substantial gains, but he wanted hazing fully eliminated. (Files, CHUCK (Committeee to Halt Useless College Killings), Sept.
8, 1986)

1988- 89 season
Kent State University (Ohio)
Alcohol-related hazing
Close call

Tim Evans, a rookie hockey player, nearly died after veterans coerced him to chug liquor and beer through a funnel.

1990
University of Northern Colorado
Baseball team hazing
Serious injury

A slide into mud at the behest of some veteran teammates during an initiation left Kevin Wolitsky, 18, paralyzed. His neck was broken. News items at the time carried strong denials that hazing had occurred. UNC later disciplined the coach and players, according to the Denver Post.

1990
Western Illinois University
Lacrosse club drinking initiation
Death of rookie

Nicholas Haben died in a dormitory after being carried back to school following a drinking initiation in a wooded area near campus. Twelve veteran participants were given community service. The initiation had been going on for many years.

1990
Whitehall-Coplay High School (Pennsylvania)
Football

A rookie suffered a concussion after being beaten by twin lines of veterans.

1991
Delta State University (Mississippi)

Two members of the DSU football team charged that they had been beaten in an initiation by three starters.

1991
Ontario High School (Oregon)
Baseball team male-on-male violence

Police ended a one-year investigation into the sodomizing of four rookie players. Police said six veterans sodomized the four.

1992
Wilmington High School (Massachusetts)
Football physical hazing at camp

Police and administrators came under fire when some references to more serious types of physical assault were deleted from a written investigation report. Victims in the case claimed they were subjected to improper touching and physical assault, reported The Boston Globe (Oct. 17, 1992)


1992
Lodi (New Jersey) High School
Physical hazing
Financial settlement

Anthony Erekat, a member of the football squad, had his hair hacked off and had players spread feces and peanut butter all over his body during the initiation. He won a settlement.

1992
Sunnyside High School (Washington)
Hazing on Wrestling Team (sodomy)
Conviction

A young man, 15, claimed that he had been penetrated with a mop handle during an attack by several wrestlers. He suffered internal injuries. After plea bargaining, Richard Melendrez, entered a guilty plea to second-degree reckless endangerment.

1992
Johnson Creek High School (Wisconsin)
Taping admitted

Some wrestlers at Johnson Creek High School in Wisconsin admitted taping a student but denied sodomizing him with a mop handle as the victim claimed; they were acquitted of serious assault charges.

A Ball State U. student, Mark Patterson, disclosed his regret at unintentionally breaking the arm of a new caddie when Patterson and another veteran caddie put a broomstick between the legs of the rookie to give him a ride as a type of wedgie.

Paine College (Augusta, Georgia)
Omega Psi Phi
Boxer alleges injury in physical hazing

Former Southeastern Golden Gloves heavyweight boxer Ric Ross claimed he suffered a spinal injury following a beating by members in a historically African American national fraternity.

1994
Shawnee Mission East High School (Kansas)
Soccer player hurt in school freshman initiation custom

The Kansas City Star (September 3, 1994) reported that the arms of two boys (one a soccer player who missed some games) were broken in a physical hazing (“hill rolling) ritual.

1995
Texas Cowboys
Athletic booster (spirit club) group
Alcohol-related drowning death in initiation

The Texas Cowboys, a spirit group that boasts members such as former Dallas Coach Tom Landry, held an initiation for so-called “Newmen” which included large amounts of alcohol. Gabe Higgins drowned in the middle of the night in the Colorado River. The Cowboys were known for shooting the cannon during football games and for forming a sort-of honor line through which football players passed before each game. The team was put on probation and returned in
1996

Salt Fork Storm (Jamaica High School and Catlin High School) Alleged physical hazing - Football team

Joshua Lock, 14, told the Chicago Tribune (August 30, 1996) that his lacerated spleen was the result of hazing by an older player (and part of a pattern of hazing by older players).

1996
University of Georgia
Fraternity hazing of football player
Conviction

Running back Rod Perrymond was hospitalized with severe bruising after being paddled 50-70 times. He left Georgia because of a lack of playing time and a feeling of discomfort walking about campus. Three Phil Beta Sigma fraternity males pleaded guilty and were sentenced to perform community service but had all jail time suspended, according to the Atlanta Constitution.

1997
Comal High School (Texas)
Football High School Hazing

A football player allegedly was a victim of sodomy with a coat hanger. The district suspended Coach Larry Nowotny. He resigned in 1997.

1997 - Rancho Bernardo High School (California, Poway School District) - Physical hazing and sexual assault
Junior varsity baseball player

After a rookie baseball player was sodomized with an object in the locker room, he settled for $675,000 with the district, according to the San Diego Union-Tribunel. Court records showed that the attack was part of a six-year pattern of assault in several sports and was deeply entrenched in school athletics

1997
Joseph High School (Oregon)
Football players and male-on-male violence

The Vancouver Columbian (September 28, 1997) reported the suspension of two athletes following an attack at a football team picnic. About 12 players attacked a 10th grade player while riding in the back of a pickup driven by a coach. One player rubbed his exposed genitals against the
boys skin, and another forced the boy to touch the older player’s genitals.

1998
Culdesac H.S./Lapwai School District
Suit filed in an Idaho court in 2000

The Lapwai School District and eight employees have been sued following initiations which two victims and their parents described as “assaults” and mock “rapes.”

1998
Thorndale High School (Texas) - Football - Sexual assault

Four football players pleaded guilty to misdemeanor hazing after injuring a rookie’s anus and delicate organs with a soda pop bottle.

1998
New Orleans Saints
Professional football hazing

After the New Orleans Saints conducted a 1998 hazing similar to a gang “jump-in,” rookie Cam Cleeland was sidelined with an eye injury he sustained when bashed with a bag of coins and rookie Jeff Danish was sent through a window and hospitalized for stitches.

1999
McAlester High School (Oklahoma)
Football physical hazing
Injury

Matt Warnock suffered a head injury after he was jumped by teammates in a locker room hazing by teammates. It was the second hazing injury involving the football team in two years.

2000
Trumbull High School (CT) - Wrestling team

One new wrestler (a special education student) was injured, and several others allegedly were hazed, at Trumbull H.S. Six wrestlers face charges. Although police refused to identify charges publicly, a lawyer said the special ed student was forced to suffer indignities, including the insertion of a plastic knife into his rectum. 2000
Hilton Head High School (South Carolina) - Wrestling hazing

Wrestling coach George Dixon resigned after a student said he had been sexually assaulted with a broomstick during an initiation rite.

2000
Mansfield High School (Texas) - Athletic hazing

A football player beaten by veterans was treated for fluid in his lungs and quit school, according to the Fort Worth Star Telegram.

2000
Glendale School District (CA)
Athletic hazing

A coach resigned in the wake of athletic department allegations involving acts of sodomy with a small
bat and broom handle.

2000
Winslow High School (Arizona) - Sexual hazing alleged (basketball/track)

Members of a girl's athletic squad charged that they saw evidence of male athletes being sodomized with fingers and objects. A parent of a young man accused of hazing says due process was not followed. Basketball coach Daniel Gonzalez was indicted on three felonycounts of child abuse.

Moon Area High School (Pennsylvania) - Football hazing and coverup

After a football player suffered a concussion after being belted with an alarm clock in a hazing incident, team members tried to make up a story to cover up the incident, the school confirmed.Yucca Valley High School (California)

Hazing and rape alleged 2000

At least two victims claim they were hazed and raped in a hazing initiation. Charges were brought against numerous senior members of the football team, dividing this quiet community into camps of supporters of the victims and antagonists saying racism was a factor. Six were expelled.

.Alexandria High School (Louisiana) Update on 2000 case
Athletic hazing with injuries Civil lawsuit (June)
2001

The mother of new football player Trey Warner III is suing for $50,000, seeking damage for a broken nose and other head injuries. He was beaten in the locker room.




[/ QUOTE ]

[4 High]

tying the victim to a board with the head lower than the feet so that he or she is unable to move. A piece of cloth is held tightly over the face, and water is poured onto the cloth. Breathing is extremely difficult and the victim will be in fear of imminent death by asphyxiation.

How is this not torture?

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
tying the victim to a board with the head lower than the feet so that he or she is unable to move. A piece of cloth is held tightly over the face, and water is poured onto the cloth. Breathing is extremely difficult and the victim will be in fear of imminent death by asphyxiation.

How is this not torture?

[/ QUOTE ]

In case you werent aware, we use this method on our own aviators duringer Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) training. While I didnt get waterboarded personally, several of my friends did. Yeah it sucks but it does no permanent harm and the chances of actually killing someone by doing this are infinitesimal, and has proven to be effective.

[bobman0330]

[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand, British inteligence during wartime managed to turn the majority of the German spies they caught on British soil! They achieved this without not just torture but without so much as punching the prisoner in the face. The British are smart: They value a turned agent more highly than the location of some maildrops.


[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't they do this by credibly threatening to execute anyone who didn't cooperate, then executing anyone who didn't cooperate? Are you suggesting we should execute everyone at Guantanamo?

[BCPVP]

Seems that some of the people arguing in favor of these techniques believe that it's ok if a) it doesn't leave any marks and/or b) some of us do similar things to ourselves. To test whether they really believe this is ok, I think we should demonstrate these techniques to the interrogators-in-training by using the advocates children. Fair?

edit- Yay, 5k!

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand, British inteligence during wartime managed to turn the majority of the German spies they caught on British soil! They achieved this without not just torture but without so much as punching the prisoner in the face. The British are smart: They value a turned agent more highly than the location of some maildrops.


[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't they do this by credibly threatening to execute anyone who didn't cooperate, then executing anyone who didn't cooperate? Are you suggesting we should execute everyone at Guantanamo?

[/ QUOTE ]
We (and I assume 1940's Britain did as well) at least have the legal "ability" to execute spies. I don't believe we can legally execute prisoners.

[Copernicus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand, British inteligence during wartime managed to turn the majority of the German spies they caught on British soil! They achieved this without not just torture but without so much as punching the prisoner in the face. The British are smart: They value a turned agent more highly than the location of some maildrops.


[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't they do this by credibly threatening to execute anyone who didn't cooperate, then executing anyone who didn't cooperate? Are you suggesting we should execute everyone at Guantanamo?

[/ QUOTE ]
We (and I assume 1940's Britain did as well) at least have the legal "ability" to execute spies. I don't believe we can legally execute prisoners.

[/ QUOTE ]

that isnt the point. The contention was that the British were able to turn Germans without the use of torture. The threat of execution (legal or not) was an alternative means to the same end that doesnt exist in the case of POWs/enemy combatants.

Demonstrate an alternative to extract vital information in a timely manner, such as the information from al-Khatani, achieved by coercive interrogation, and Im sure interrogators would be happy to add it to their arsenal.

[aheravi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
tying the victim to a board with the head lower than the feet so that he or she is unable to move. A piece of cloth is held tightly over the face, and water is poured onto the cloth. Breathing is extremely difficult and the victim will be in fear of imminent death by asphyxiation.

How is this not torture?

[/ QUOTE ]

In case you werent aware, we use this method on our own aviators duringer Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) training. While I didnt get waterboarded personally, several of my friends did. Yeah it sucks but it does no permanent harm and the chances of actually killing someone by doing this are infinitesimal, and has proven to be effective.

[/ QUOTE ]

Vulture,

By effective, do you mean getting reliable information, or do you mean getting someone to sign/say anything?

I'm assuming you got the smokety-smoke as well.

[steve9789]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you realize college hazings are worse than whats currently being done to these detainees? Someone should notify the UN and the Red Cross that US college fraternities are violating common article 3 of the Geneva Conventions.

[/ QUOTE ]

First... you shouldn't speak for all Fraternities. Because certainly most aren't worse. Unless you're suggesting that they're trying to ply info from our prisoners by making them shotgun cans of beer.

Umm, I wasn't saying ALL fraternities.

Though there are hazings (fraternities and otherwise) who go a lot farther. Are those the ones you mean? If so, I'm not sure why you think this makes torture okay. After all, these fraternities and athletes are (1) idiots and (2) breaking the law. So good point on your part.

No where in my post does it say "I think torture is okay".

Does this help make your point? This sure doesn't sound like torture...
[ QUOTE ]
According to the research presented by Hank Nuwer (1990), journalist and author of several books related to hazing, hazing has been associated with more than 50 deaths in college fraternities and countless more physical injuries including paralysis, not to mention the devastating emotional effects that can result for so many young men and women.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Hazing is often winked at as a benign initiation ritual, but it has a tendency to spiral out of control, as it did in the horrific events at Long Island's Mepham High. A 6'2", 245-pound senior sat on a 145-pound jayvee player while a hulking junior linebacker pulled down the player's shorts, dipped a broomstick in Mineral Ice - an ointment that burns when applied to sensitive skin - and forcibly sodomized him. They sodomized three players at least 10 times.



[/ QUOTE ]

Here's a list of hazings from a hazing blog....

[ QUOTE ]
1923
Hobart College (New York)
Freshman Hazing

Two senior football players were expelled after freshman Lloyd Hyde was beaten and thrown into Seneca Lake. Three other senior athletes received lesser punishments.

1928
University of Texas (non-athletic hazing; included because death of athlete)
Delta Kappa Epsilon
Fraternity hazing (athlete involved)

Pledge Nolte McElroy, 19, a UT football player, died from electrical shock. Members asked him to crawl through mattresses charged with electrical current.

1975
University of Nevada, Reno
Sundowners (subrosa club heavy with athletes)
Drinking initiation death

Wolfpack football player John Davies died in an alcohol-related initiation. A grand jury blasted
members but no one was charged with a crime.

1976
University of Texas
Texas Cowboys school-and-athletic spirit club

Members brained an initiate with wooden boards, and he was taken to an intensive care unit.

1978
Alfred University (New York)
Klan Alpine

Chuck Stenzel, a new pledge who hoped to join this fraternity which contained many lacrosse players, a major interest of his, died following a traditional Tapping Night for the chapter that included being locked in a trunk and given huge amounts of alcohol.

1979
Harvard University (Massachusetts)
Pi Eta

Paul Callahan, 22, a former Harvard basketball player, was paralyzed after a wrestling match which occurred following initiation ceremonies between new initiates and actives on a beer-coated linoleum floor.

1980
University of Michigan
Hockey
Alcohol-related hazing--severe

Michigan’s athletic director castigated hazers (“Our practice is not to tolerate hazing in any
form,” said athletic director Don Canham) who shaved a player’s pubic hair, stripped him, locked him in a trunk, drove around and then dumped him at a residence hall. He was drunk and covered with foodstuffs. Four others were initiated. It was cold, and an R.A. said the player had turned blue.

1980
University of South Carolina
Sigma Nu

Barry Ballou, who had been hazed in high school as a rookie football player, died following a drinking-related initiation run in part by an alumnus.

1981
Toms River, New Jersey
Soccer team tradition of initiating first-year players

Rookie soccer players said they were physically and vigorously pummeled during a long-tolerated school ritual known as “Freshman Kill Day.”


1983
Nogales High School (Arizona)
athletic hazing court case

Seven junior varsity players from Nogales High School in Arizona said that they had been assaulted by older baseball players in the back of the team bus. Coaches were acquitted in 1984 court case but had to give up their positions.

1984
American International College (Massachusetts)
Local fraternity (heavily weighted with athletes)
Alcohol-related hazing death

Jay Lenaghan died in a 1984 marathon drinking hazing for his fraternity; many, like Jay, were athletes. Many were football players.

1985
Lowell High School (Massachusetts)
Physical hazing
Injury

After two hockey players suffered serious injuries, the school superintendent merely banned practices run by hockey team captains until the victim’s parents protested, prompting five suspensions of veteran players.

1985-1986 season
Scotts Valley (CA)
Water Polo hazing

With the assistance of the Committee to Halt Useless College Killings, a Scotts Valley anti-hazing activist fought hazing after his son was subjected to physical and emotional hazing. He charged that water polo hazing could be tracked seven years. He said there were substantial gains, but he wanted hazing fully eliminated. (Files, CHUCK (Committeee to Halt Useless College Killings), Sept.
8, 1986)

1988- 89 season
Kent State University (Ohio)
Alcohol-related hazing
Close call

Tim Evans, a rookie hockey player, nearly died after veterans coerced him to chug liquor and beer through a funnel.

1990
University of Northern Colorado
Baseball team hazing
Serious injury

A slide into mud at the behest of some veteran teammates during an initiation left Kevin Wolitsky, 18, paralyzed. His neck was broken. News items at the time carried strong denials that hazing had occurred. UNC later disciplined the coach and players, according to the Denver Post.

1990
Western Illinois University
Lacrosse club drinking initiation
Death of rookie

Nicholas Haben died in a dormitory after being carried back to school following a drinking initiation in a wooded area near campus. Twelve veteran participants were given community service. The initiation had been going on for many years.

1990
Whitehall-Coplay High School (Pennsylvania)
Football

A rookie suffered a concussion after being beaten by twin lines of veterans.

1991
Delta State University (Mississippi)

Two members of the DSU football team charged that they had been beaten in an initiation by three starters.

1991
Ontario High School (Oregon)
Baseball team male-on-male violence

Police ended a one-year investigation into the sodomizing of four rookie players. Police said six veterans sodomized the four.

1992
Wilmington High School (Massachusetts)
Football physical hazing at camp

Police and administrators came under fire when some references to more serious types of physical assault were deleted from a written investigation report. Victims in the case claimed they were subjected to improper touching and physical assault, reported The Boston Globe (Oct. 17, 1992)


1992
Lodi (New Jersey) High School
Physical hazing
Financial settlement

Anthony Erekat, a member of the football squad, had his hair hacked off and had players spread feces and peanut butter all over his body during the initiation. He won a settlement.

1992
Sunnyside High School (Washington)
Hazing on Wrestling Team (sodomy)
Conviction

A young man, 15, claimed that he had been penetrated with a mop handle during an attack by several wrestlers. He suffered internal injuries. After plea bargaining, Richard Melendrez, entered a guilty plea to second-degree reckless endangerment.

1992
Johnson Creek High School (Wisconsin)
Taping admitted

Some wrestlers at Johnson Creek High School in Wisconsin admitted taping a student but denied sodomizing him with a mop handle as the victim claimed; they were acquitted of serious assault charges.

A Ball State U. student, Mark Patterson, disclosed his regret at unintentionally breaking the arm of a new caddie when Patterson and another veteran caddie put a broomstick between the legs of the rookie to give him a ride as a type of wedgie.

Paine College (Augusta, Georgia)
Omega Psi Phi
Boxer alleges injury in physical hazing

Former Southeastern Golden Gloves heavyweight boxer Ric Ross claimed he suffered a spinal injury following a beating by members in a historically African American national fraternity.

1994
Shawnee Mission East High School (Kansas)
Soccer player hurt in school freshman initiation custom

The Kansas City Star (September 3, 1994) reported that the arms of two boys (one a soccer player who missed some games) were broken in a physical hazing (“hill rolling) ritual.

1995
Texas Cowboys
Athletic booster (spirit club) group
Alcohol-related drowning death in initiation

The Texas Cowboys, a spirit group that boasts members such as former Dallas Coach Tom Landry, held an initiation for so-called “Newmen” which included large amounts of alcohol. Gabe Higgins drowned in the middle of the night in the Colorado River. The Cowboys were known for shooting the cannon during football games and for forming a sort-of honor line through which football players passed before each game. The team was put on probation and returned in
1996

Salt Fork Storm (Jamaica High School and Catlin High School) Alleged physical hazing - Football team

Joshua Lock, 14, told the Chicago Tribune (August 30, 1996) that his lacerated spleen was the result of hazing by an older player (and part of a pattern of hazing by older players).

1996
University of Georgia
Fraternity hazing of football player
Conviction

Running back Rod Perrymond was hospitalized with severe bruising after being paddled 50-70 times. He left Georgia because of a lack of playing time and a feeling of discomfort walking about campus. Three Phil Beta Sigma fraternity males pleaded guilty and were sentenced to perform community service but had all jail time suspended, according to the Atlanta Constitution.

1997
Comal High School (Texas)
Football High School Hazing

A football player allegedly was a victim of sodomy with a coat hanger. The district suspended Coach Larry Nowotny. He resigned in 1997.

1997 - Rancho Bernardo High School (California, Poway School District) - Physical hazing and sexual assault
Junior varsity baseball player

After a rookie baseball player was sodomized with an object in the locker room, he settled for $675,000 with the district, according to the San Diego Union-Tribunel. Court records showed that the attack was part of a six-year pattern of assault in several sports and was deeply entrenched in school athletics

1997
Joseph High School (Oregon)
Football players and male-on-male violence

The Vancouver Columbian (September 28, 1997) reported the suspension of two athletes following an attack at a football team picnic. About 12 players attacked a 10th grade player while riding in the back of a pickup driven by a coach. One player rubbed his exposed genitals against the
boys skin, and another forced the boy to touch the older player’s genitals.

1998
Culdesac H.S./Lapwai School District
Suit filed in an Idaho court in 2000

The Lapwai School District and eight employees have been sued following initiations which two victims and their parents described as “assaults” and mock “rapes.”

1998
Thorndale High School (Texas) - Football - Sexual assault

Four football players pleaded guilty to misdemeanor hazing after injuring a rookie’s anus and delicate organs with a soda pop bottle.

1998
New Orleans Saints
Professional football hazing

After the New Orleans Saints conducted a 1998 hazing similar to a gang “jump-in,” rookie Cam Cleeland was sidelined with an eye injury he sustained when bashed with a bag of coins and rookie Jeff Danish was sent through a window and hospitalized for stitches.

1999
McAlester High School (Oklahoma)
Football physical hazing
Injury

Matt Warnock suffered a head injury after he was jumped by teammates in a locker room hazing by teammates. It was the second hazing injury involving the football team in two years.

2000
Trumbull High School (CT) - Wrestling team

One new wrestler (a special education student) was injured, and several others allegedly were hazed, at Trumbull H.S. Six wrestlers face charges. Although police refused to identify charges publicly, a lawyer said the special ed student was forced to suffer indignities, including the insertion of a plastic knife into his rectum. 2000
Hilton Head High School (South Carolina) - Wrestling hazing

Wrestling coach George Dixon resigned after a student said he had been sexually assaulted with a broomstick during an initiation rite.

2000
Mansfield High School (Texas) - Athletic hazing

A football player beaten by veterans was treated for fluid in his lungs and quit school, according to the Fort Worth Star Telegram.

2000
Glendale School District (CA)
Athletic hazing

A coach resigned in the wake of athletic department allegations involving acts of sodomy with a small
bat and broom handle.

2000
Winslow High School (Arizona) - Sexual hazing alleged (basketball/track)

Members of a girl's athletic squad charged that they saw evidence of male athletes being sodomized with fingers and objects. A parent of a young man accused of hazing says due process was not followed. Basketball coach Daniel Gonzalez was indicted on three felonycounts of child abuse.

Moon Area High School (Pennsylvania) - Football hazing and coverup

After a football player suffered a concussion after being belted with an alarm clock in a hazing incident, team members tried to make up a story to cover up the incident, the school confirmed.Yucca Valley High School (California)

Hazing and rape alleged 2000

At least two victims claim they were hazed and raped in a hazing initiation. Charges were brought against numerous senior members of the football team, dividing this quiet community into camps of supporters of the victims and antagonists saying racism was a factor. Six were expelled.

.Alexandria High School (Louisiana) Update on 2000 case
Athletic hazing with injuries Civil lawsuit (June)
2001

The mother of new football player Trey Warner III is suing for $50,000, seeking damage for a broken nose and other head injuries. He was beaten in the locker room.




[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

You really could have saved yourself alot of time if you had understood what I was saying.

The closest I came to saying it's okay, (as you put it) was to say that many of us disagree about what is/isn't torture.

Better luck next time.

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand, British inteligence during wartime managed to turn the majority of the German spies they caught on British soil! They achieved this without not just torture but without so much as punching the prisoner in the face. The British are smart: They value a turned agent more highly than the location of some maildrops.

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't they do this by credibly threatening to execute anyone who didn't cooperate, then executing anyone who didn't cooperate?

[/ QUOTE ]No, nothing like that.


Mickey Brausch