50NL - Full Ring - JJ Hand - Intersting Preflop approach

[Margon]

Poker Room skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is UTG+2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#cc0000">MP1 raises to $2.5</font>, 6 folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($8.25, 3 players)
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $5</font>, MP1 calls, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($18.25, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">MP1 bets $10</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises all-in $18.75</font>, MP1 calls.

River: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($55.75, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $55.75)


Results:
Final pot: $55.75


The preflop play is the most interesting thing about this hand. There was a lot of banter at the table about some bad play before this hand (and after this hand it went crazy, my only response is TY.)

With JJ in early position I don't like to raise as I end up in a big pot pretty quickly with a farily weak hand (seems like most of the time A, K, Q, or a combination of them hits and I have a middle pair with little hope of improving). The advantage of the limp with this, as I see it, is a deceptive play in early position, and if you hit your set, you will often get paid off.

What are your thoughts on the check raise on the turn? I was expecting the villan to bet out. I didn't put him on AA, KK, or QQ, meaning my overpair was behind to a set or 45.

Also on the turn The pot was 28.25 when it was back to me, with 18.75 left in my stack and 10 to call it was an 'in or out' decision, and if I was in, raising would maximize what little fold equity I may have had.

Thoughts and comments are appreciated.

Margon.

[MrMxyztplk]

PF limp is a little weak for me, but if you like to play jacks for set value (which wastes a lot of its value), then that's your call.

As played, it is an interesting hand. Reads are pretty key here. I'd like to know my opponent floats flop and puts pressure on the turn before making this play though. That way, you can take his $$ on overcard-type hands. If he only bets strong hands on the turn, then this is aweful, obviously. So I guess it depends on what kind of villain you're up against...

[lorez]

What are the stacks?

I think the JJ limp given your position is fine at FR, depends on the table dynamics though (lots of raising behind, people not respecting your raises, too many callers to a pfr, the players stacks and type of player you are up against).

Villain could have anything really, without a read this is difficult to grasp.

Flop, I like the bet into him. At least you'll get a grasp on where you are in the hand and whether he's holding a big pair or just paint cards/medium pps.

On the turn, an harmless card hits and you check. This is a little bit suspect for the villain. I'd check behind here if I was the villain. If I was the villain I'd be thinking "He led into me on the flop and then checks the turn? Why?" . I think you are right that he doesn't have a big pair given his flop play, unless he's a retard and likes to trap with AA on flop with draws on it - (I had a hand like that yesterday, I'll hunt it out and post it later). I'm thinking he has a hand like 88 (depends on looseness), 99, TT, AK hearts, AQ hearts (this all depends on the villains range really) but it's a tough one really without any prior knowledge.

I'd probably fold though. Given your remaining stack, the draws on the board, the betting up to now and the lack of knowledge on them I think we would be losing this more times than not. You hand is drawing to 2 cards (both jacks) and I don't think it's worth the call or the CR all in.

[ChipStorm]

You appear to be shortstacked, looks like ~50-55BB. Rebuy. Given that you are shortstacked, I would absolutely raise this preflop. (I suppose you could go for a LRR but I don't.)

IF you had a full stack, limping would be OK as an occasional play. Your line gets you all-in if that's what you're looking for, but a c/c flop, push turn line might have more fold equity.

The fundamental problem with limping is this. There are tons of possible hands behind you that might fold to your raise, but if you limp, will raise it up themselves: ATo, 87s, you name it. So instead of playing a pot with position vs. UTG+1 and the blinds, or taking it down outright, now you're playing OOP with, as you say, a fairly weak hand.

Especially with a limper in front, I'd lean strongly toward raising, trying to isolate with position, and going from there.

[ymu]

I don't hate the limp from EP. At an aggressive table, I'm happy to call a raise but not a reraise - especially shortstacked - and there's some deception value.

On the turn, the checkraise should be because you want to get it all in by inducing a bluff - not because you think you have any fold equity. If you want him to fold, push the turn. If he's likely to float the flop with A high, giving a free card here is dangerous if there's any chance of him checking behind - an 8, T, Q, K or A is bad news on the river, and 5, 6 or 7 are scary if he'll raise weak As or mid-small PPs after limpers. If he's ~100% likely to bet if you check, then this line is good if you think you're ahead.

[lorez]

Sklansky and Miller discuss a similar preflop situation of what to do with a middle pair depending on stack size in NLHT&amp;P. In their example they use 88 to illustrate the problem but i think it's a similar situation to this. In that they say that with a medium stack that limping is the correct thing to do here and run through a number of scenarios with different pf action. The main argument against raising from EP is what happens if you get reraised?

They also say that if you were short stacked (less than 20BB) then raising all in is the correct play and if you have a large stack (100BB+) then raising about 4BB is the correct play.

[Shaddux]

[ QUOTE ]
With JJ in early position I don't like to raise as I end up in a big pot pretty quickly with a farily weak hand (seems like most of the time A, K, Q, or a combination of them hits and I have a middle pair with little hope of improving). The advantage of the limp with this, as I see it, is a deceptive play in early position, and if you hit your set, you will often get paid off.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with this reasoning. If you raise and get one caller, JJ is not a weak hand even if an overcard comes. However, if it is inevitable that the pot will be multway, I still raise, but this time I play mainly for set value (and the occasional times we have an overpair). In a multiway, raised pot, a set is much more likely to be paid off.

Lastly, reload before the hand.

[effang]

Wouldn't a stronger line to check raise the flop? Then you can easily tell if he's betting overcards or a stronger PP/Set.