1.2/45 99 UTG

[Ninth Prince]

This kind of hand (mid-range PP) is a complete mystery to me. What's the standard way to play PF given that I'm UTG? Given my preflop raise, what's the next step? Guess this is why you don't play these out of position. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (7 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Button (t2280)
SB (t3105)
BB (t840)
Hero (t2920)
MP1 (t1910)
MP2 (t1575)
CO (t2875)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t400</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls t400, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls t350, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t1300) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t700</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t1400</font>, SB folds, Hero ?

[JCool]

Uh. raise pf to 300. Continuation bet of half the pot is fine. Easy fold to the raise.

[Baintz]

It depends on the table for me. In the 1.2/45 game it can be quite likely that you'll get at least a couple of callers, as loads of people will be calling with Ax and KT, KJ, KQ, QJ. I might limp here and if there is a raise I'll call and see what the flop brings.

Also, the amount of people seeing flops is a big factor and should be considered before you raise. The more callers of a raise, the higher your c-bet has to be. Look what happened here, by making a large raise preflop and getting two callers, your initial raise + c-bet has cost you over a third of your chips, and unless you pick up chips quickly, you're in AI or fold mode at the next blind increase. If you raise to about 250 prelop, and were to get same 2 callers again, your c-bet would only need to be about 500. So you'd have lost only 750 instead of 1100.

I don't hate folding the 9s either, you can look for easier spots in this 1.2/45 game for people to give you their chips.

[Ninth Prince]

I can understand your argument. My normal PF raise is 3xBB, but, for whatever reason, I put in 4xBB here. I think I was trying to chase as many people as possible.

BTW, I did fold to the raise and I was left there asking myself how I let a pair of nines cost me 1/3 my stack.

[darth.bilbo]

preflop fold or limp is fine. i'm not sure i'd raise 4x here. 2.5x or 3x seems about right. easier to control the pot size by keeping the raise small.

remember that you're gonna get a lot of A-rag chasers in a 1.2/45. be aware of your surroundings after the flop.

[AceLuby]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, I did fold to the raise and I was left there asking myself how I let a pair of nines cost me 1/3 my stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably because there wasn't any foresight. By raising PF you built a bigger pot which means a c-bet will cost you more, which your stack can't afford. I may limp and try to see a flop for as cheap as possible, try to spike my set, maybe put in a bet on a favorable board anyway, and be able to get away from my nines if say... two aces flopped.

UTG I don't like a raise w/ 99 (esp 4x BB raises) because so many people have to act and if we get re-raised significantly we have a very tough decision.

[Ninth Prince]

"Probably" wasn't any foresight?--you're being kind.

Here's what I think was driving my decision. I seem to recall some advice from HOH Vol. I that you want to have a mixed strategy playing mid-level PP in early position--raising some fraction of the time (70%?) and limping the other. If I remember correctly Harrington suggests raising more than your typical amount to drive out competition.

I can understand this logic and have to believe that it is correct, but the thing that I was forgetting stack sizes. Because I was among the top five or six people in terms of stack size at the time I didn't even think about it (this is a clear weakness, among many others, in the way I play).

So, I considered one factor when I should have been considering multiple factors. Stack sizes were something I should have been considering, but wasn't. How about the adage that you want to keep pots small when you have marginal hands. Is this an actual adage and should it have received meaningful weight in my thinking? Also, how do I square that adage with the notion that you want to raise in early position to drive out competition?

Thanks for helping me learn!

[darth.bilbo]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's what I think was driving my decision. I seem to recall some advice from HOH Vol. I that you want to have a mixed strategy playing mid-level PP in early position--raising some fraction of the time (70%?) and limping the other. If I remember correctly Harrington suggests raising more than your typical amount to drive out competition.

[/ QUOTE ]

this implies that your opponents are actually paying attention to your raising frequency. i'd bet that most of the players at the table in a 1.2/45 couldn't tell you how many pots you've been in the last 5 hands. mixing it up is good for deception, but not if the move is lost on your opponents.


[ QUOTE ]
How about the adage that you want to keep pots small when you have marginal hands. Is this an actual adage and should it have received meaningful weight in my thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]

right. keep it small until you have a big (made) hand. like i said above, they prolly aren't paying enough attention to you to know what a 4x raise means vs. a 3x raise. keep it small. limp. then when you make a hand, make them pay.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, how do I square that adage with the notion that you want to raise in early position to drive out competition?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes and no. are you really going to drive out anyone from UTG with 4x? if you want to build a big pot here (a bad idea w/ 99 in most cases from UTG), you certainly don't want 3-4 people tagging along for the ride (you'd be raising in EP to isolate with a hand like 99). you obviously want to spike a set, but if you don't spike the set, any card A-T on the flop would have to scare you with a multi-way pot. i think i'd much rather limp here and let 7 people call. when i do hit my set, the pot is already big for me (with me having to do the work) and more often than not, you'll be able to get someone to commit more chips on the flop.

think about this:

1) What do I want to happen when i put these chips into the pot.
2) what kind of hands do I expect to call this bet.
3) can i get away from this easily if i'm raised (do i know my opponents well enough to actually put them on a raising range).
4) what stacks behind me are likely to play any two because they 'had a hunch'
5) can my stack justify building a pot this big right now

[kleath]

Even if you raise pf here Im not sure I like the cbet, some sort of Ax hand comprises a large part of each persons range, and most pairs probably arent folding and even some random 4 might play back at you, problem is even if you think there light you really cant stand a raise on this board, I'd probably try to check through the flop here.

[darth.bilbo]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably try to check through the flop here

[/ QUOTE ]
agreed.