Roulette systems - do they work?

[CORed]

No, a Martingale wouldn't really work with no betting limit. The bigger your bankroll, the lower your proabability of hitting a bad enough streak to bust you. But the probability of busting never reaches zero and it's still -EV, no matter how big your bankroll. besides, do you really want to risk $1,000,000,000 or so for a net profit of $1?

[edfurlong]

So you are saying I should triple my bet after a loss right?

[Glenn]

"Roulette is unique in being the only casino table game where every available bet has the same EV, even though the odds and payouts change dramatically (from even money to 35:1)."

This is simply wrong. For instance, single numbers pay 35:1, if you split 2 number it pays 17:1.

[CORed]

[ QUOTE ]
You mean Internet roulette? I've been wondering about the B&M wheels lately ... Guardian story

[/ QUOTE ]
Just make sure you play in the UK. Most (Actually all, I believe) US states with casino gambling have laws against using "devices" to predict outcomes. In Nevade, IIRC, it is a felony. I once received an email from a Colorado Gaming Commission official who claimed that even using ones chips to keep track of the count in Blackjack would be a violation of the "device" law. He told me that using anything other than my brain to keep track of the count in blackjack would be illegal. I don't know if there's any case law to back this up, but I would be very careful.

[CORed]

[ QUOTE ]
So you are saying I should triple my bet after a loss right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why limit your profit like that? Multiply it by 100.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You mean Internet roulette? I've been wondering about the B&M wheels lately ... Guardian story

[/ QUOTE ]
Just make sure you play in the UK. Most (Actually all, I believe) US states with casino gambling have laws against using "devices" to predict outcomes. In Nevade, IIRC, it is a felony. I once received an email from a Colorado Gaming Commission official who claimed that even using ones chips to keep track of the count in Blackjack would be a violation of the "device" law. He told me that using anything other than my brain to keep track of the count in blackjack would be illegal. I don't know if there's any case law to back this up, but I would be very careful.

[/ QUOTE ]


that's interesting that he would tell you that using your chips to keep track of the BJ count would constitute a felony.

I thought the law was perhaps 'electronic devices' or something. I never heard of the whole 'can only be your brain' thing.

I was counting last night actually and I always use my foot to keep a side-count of the aces.

If it's my body would that count?
Kind of the same as counting on one's fingers.


Also regarding the whole bit about not being allowed to keep track...players are allowed to mark down the results in baccarat hands and can also mark down the results at roulette if they like (although now most roulette wheels have a big board that does this for you).

Ignoring for the moment that these methods on bacarrat and roulette won't help you win at all whereas counting at BJ can help you win...I wonder if they are really able to make a distinction legally.

Lets say I'm a really bad counter (there are lots of those out there too) or maybe my system is terrible and I'm convinvced that I should double-down every 3rd hand no matter what I have.
If I use my chips to keep track of the number of hands played to employ such an terrible strategy then does it suddenly become a felony?

What if I can't add my cards of 8 and 4 in my head and I use my stack of chips to count it out and see what the total is?? Is this a felony as opposed to adding 8 and 4 on my fingers?


I'm just not convinved (yet) that this guy's interpretation that it would really be a felony is correct.
And I also suspect such laws about devices, etc would vary from state to state anyway.

[Sandra Bullett]

MicroBob, there are RULES that are specific to blackjack, as well as RULES specific to every other casino game. There has to be - obviously - because the games are played differently (I know this sounds insultingly obvious, but no insult intended).

In the blackjack RULES there is a section saying "No devices" (and specifying what that means, eg. "no electrical, electronic, mechanical or other device that can be used to record, transmit, store, process or otherwise ..."). Different jurisdictions have different wordings. Some more restrictive than others.

The LAW about casino gambling states that it is illegal to break the RULES of any game.

That's how using pen and paper is illegal at BJ, but not at roulette or baccaret (which have no such clause within their game RULES).

Several counters have been accused of cheating for using chips to keep the count (I have no links, sorry). Usually because they've pissed off the casino for other reasons (any counter needing to use chips to keep a count is not likely to be a +EV player). To my knowledge NONE of these have ended with the counter being found guilty of breaking the law. Doesn't stop the casinos using it as a pretext though, of course.

Amusingly I know of one case where a judge ruled that a pencil (note: not a pen, has to be old fashioned pencil) and paper were not a mechanical device, and he found the counter not guilty. Most jurisdictions have added, "or other" to the list of proscribed device types. Obviously as a catchall.

Regarding your "every 3rd hand" example of chip tracking. It is illegal to use chips to track ANYTHING to do with a BJ game, regardless whether the aspect you are trasking is +EV or not. I have wondered in the past whether using chips to track your session bankroll (which is what chips ARE) could be deemed illegal. As the size of your bankroll has a significant effect on your odds of winning (eg. more $ takes you further away from gamblers' ruin).

I cannot imagine any casino trying to argue in court that you should not be allowed to add up the value of your own chips, but theoretically the argument could be made.

[metsandfinsfan]

[ QUOTE ]
"Roulette is unique in being the only casino table game where every available bet has the same EV, even though the odds and payouts change dramatically (from even money to 35:1)."

This is simply wrong. For instance, single numbers pay 35:1, if you split 2 number it pays 17:1.

[/ QUOTE ]

um

same ev

[Glenn]

I was being satirical. I found it funny that he made such a quality post in such a silly thread. My bad.

[metsandfinsfan]

[ QUOTE ]
I was being satirical. I found it funny that he made such a quality post in such a silly thread. My bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry. It was late and my sarcasm meter must have been turned off. my bad