Easy TP fold right?

Grizwold · #1 09-26-2006, 02:53 AM

No reads on Villain (BB), but his 3-bet OOP on the flop highly suggested to me either 2 pair or a set. Should I have folded to the 3-bet? I figured to call the 3-bet and bet the turn if checked to, but his bet on a blank turn was enough to convince me to get out (even though I called it). So I guess even calling the 3-bet was very clearly a wasted SB? Should I have even bet on the turn if checked to? Since it would be a bet vulnerable to c/r? Essentially the 3-bet on the flop was enough for me to give up on this hand right? I guess the only reason I was giving so much thought to this hand was because of so many players in the pot calling the flop.

PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.02.
3 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB 3-bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero folds...

Xhad · #2 09-26-2006, 03:31 AM

MP1 is too late to open-limp KQ. And you shouldn't call a bet expecting to be checked to. And there is a non-negligible chance that you're up against a weaker K.

tyler_cracker · #3 09-26-2006, 03:38 AM

raise preflop. you want to limit the number of opponents if you can. but hey, if they want to pay 2 bets to see a flop with T7o or J6s, that's ok too.

i agree that villain's flop 3bet is troubling. does that mean you should fold TPGK getting 17:1 against an unknown? um, no. sometimes he has a set, and that sucks for you, but a lot of the time he has 2pair (against which you have 3-6 outs), and you even have the best hand more often than you might think (OESD, dumb slowplayed QQ, crazy bluff, etc.).

it's scary that this is still 5 ways to the turn, but it's essentially impossible for all of your opponents to have legitimate hands here.

my plan is to get this hand to showdown as cheaply as possible. if the board gets a lot scarier and/or there's a lot of action, you can fold.

00Snitch · #4 09-26-2006, 06:04 AM

yep, raise PF

u flop is well played for same reasons tyler gave.

turn, this pot is getting really big, and you have to think you are a fair shot of winning.

im tempted to use our position to raise/fold the turn. hopefully getting some of these (5! [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]) players out of the hand, then checking behind on the river UI.

it really sux to have so many players to act behind you.

maybe call the turn then raise the river to prevent overcalls?

i really, really want to get some people out of this pot, but i dont know what is best

Grizwold · #5 09-26-2006, 04:59 PM

Doh. It seems my preflop mistake is unanimous. I meant to also ask if I should have raised pf, but I figured I was too early to do so, especially since I was opening; which is the reason Xhad gives that I should have raised preflop. Should I have been more inclined to limp preflop w/ callers ahead of me? Since KQ is mostly a TP hand, I should be raising in middle-late (late position is more obvious) position no matter how many callers are ahead?

Like Tyler mentioned, I found it almost impossible to fold to the 3-bet at 17:1. After the flop action, I figured BB to have something like KQ KJ KT K9 QT QJ K6 JT J9 J6 (he did see a free flop) JJ 66, and to a lesser extent maybe slowplayed AK or KK. I didn't consider QQ. I figured almost for sure I'd have to improve on the turn, but was that a bad assumption? I had BB sorta on a range which put me in a WA/WB situation, but the odds were giving me enough to stay in. I see now how much a preflop raise would have really helped me to feel more confident about BB's range.

So turn came blank. Didn't improve me, but it didn't get a lot scarier either, but I let myself get scared. BB lead on turn could have been for value, which I convinced myself that I should have folded. But it could have also been a standard c-bet too from many WB hands?

The other problem was I still had many people behind me; I couldn't assure I'd get a cheap showdown. But I was in decent relative position to villain; if I just called his bet and a raise came behind, I could easily fold if BB 3-bet turn right? Or am I still gettin too good odds at that point? That would say to me I'm done for.

Like 00Snitch talks about, I thought I had a decent chance at this big pot. Possibly more than 20%? I need to tinker w/ Pokerstove. I did feel it may be good to limit the field on the turn, so I was considering raising too. But the possibility of another 3-bet detered me.

But I guess I made the biggest mistake of all. I chose worst option of all on the turn bet, folding.

I would have been comfortable w/ calling down in this situation if I knew I could get away w/ it. And I had to risk relatively little to see if I could get halfway there. Thanks for the advice all. Time for class [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]