The $1 Billion Dollar - 700 Mile fence on the Mexican Border and more

[bkholdem]

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Why should the citizens of the United States allow anyone who wants to come here the ability to do so?

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Because freedom to move on public property (and, yes, across the border into the United States) is a fundamental human right that cannot be taken away by a simple majority vote.

Why should someone born on the opposite side of an arbitrary line be prevented from living where they choose, even if it is across said border?

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I should never have asked. Your response makes it clear that there is no point to us having this discussion. I respect your opinion and right to express it, but I cannot begin to explain how ridiculous I find it.

As a side note, if it were 11 million uneducated, unskilled, poor, english speaking white people, I would still feel the same way. It's not about race for most people.

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Please provide evidence to back up your assertions that ALL (I assume the 11 million # you quote is the estimated total of illegal immigrants in this country) of them are NOT ONLY uneducated, but ALSO poor, AND non english speaking. You assert that he is rediculous and then make this assinine comment? LOL

[bkholdem]

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Why should the citizens of the United States allow anyone who wants to come here the ability to do so?

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Because freedom to move on public property (and, yes, across the border into the United States) is a fundamental human right that cannot be taken away by a simple majority vote.

Why should someone born on the opposite side of an arbitrary line be prevented from living where they choose, even if it is across said border?

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I should never have asked. Your response makes it clear that there is no point to us having this discussion. I respect your opinion and right to express it, but I cannot begin to explain how ridiculous I find it.

As a side note, if it were 11 million uneducated, unskilled, poor, english speaking white people, I would still feel the same way. It's not about race for most people.

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You may feel the same way if they were uneducated, unskilled, poor, english speaking white people, but I doubt Felix does, as he's willing to make up statistics to support his "brown people are criminals" theory.

But the bottom line is that those 11 million uneducated, unskilled, poor people are 1) the lynchpin of the US economy that allow you (presumably an educated, skilled person) to enjoy many things you may take for granted -and- 2) in many cases have improved their own lives by entering the U.S.; even at sub-minimum-wage, America is still the land of opportunity for those willing to chase it.

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Even people who support unabated immigration and argue that they are beneficial to the economy have to admit that the law of diminishing returns applies. The first low wage worker provides great benefit with low cost. The 100 millionth low wage worker does not. I would argue that we passed the benefical point several years and millions of people ago.

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So why don't you argue it?

[Felix_Nietzsche]

The effectiveness of the Berlin Wall was better than 98%.
Perhaps my 98% estimate is too low in this modern age of technology.....

[bkholdem]

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The effectiveness of the Berlin Wall was better than 98%.
Perhaps my 98% estimate is too low in this modern age of technology.....

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I spoke out defending your use of %'s before but have since changed my mind. I read a post below where you asserted 25% of prisoners are illegal and then praised the person who corected your post for disputing your % with actual statisties.

Sorry but you don't get to set the default postion and make someone prove you wrong. I would appreciate it if you either refrained from using %'s or clearly stated that it is your personal estimate when doing so.

[DVaut1]

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The subject of politics is not like mathematics where you can prove your points beyond any doubt.
Politics falls primarily in the realm of opinion. I did not realize that I'm required to provide a disclaimer everytime I utter an opinion. I clarified that the 1-2% was my own personal estimate.

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But you said your opinion was 'the truth' (you said: "the truth stings doesn't it?", followed by conceding 'the truth' was nothing more than own personal estimate), which is a claim that is incoherent by any standard definition of the words 'truth' and 'estimate', or if you prefer, 'opinion'.

To claim that 1-2% of votes cast are cast by illegal immigrants isn't 'the truth', it's just some number you made up. That you use your own personal estimates to justify a whole host of policies (border walls, voter IDs) is utterly laughable but ought not be a banable offense -- at least, I hope that's the case.

[irvman21]

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Why should the citizens of the United States allow anyone who wants to come here the ability to do so?

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Because freedom to move on public property (and, yes, across the border into the United States) is a fundamental human right that cannot be taken away by a simple majority vote.

Why should someone born on the opposite side of an arbitrary line be prevented from living where they choose, even if it is across said border?

[/ QUOTE ]

I should never have asked. Your response makes it clear that there is no point to us having this discussion. I respect your opinion and right to express it, but I cannot begin to explain how ridiculous I find it.

As a side note, if it were 11 million uneducated, unskilled, poor, english speaking white people, I would still feel the same way. It's not about race for most people.

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Please provide evidence to back up your assertions that ALL (I assume the 11 million # you quote is the estimated total of illegal immigrants in this country) of them are NOT ONLY uneducated, but ALSO poor, AND non english speaking. You assert that he is rediculous and then make this assinine comment? LOL

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You have reading comprehension (and spelling) issues. I made no such assertion, I created a hypothetical situation, hence the word "if".

Additionally, I never stated he was ridiculous, I stated that I think making this a "human rights" issue is ridiculous.

[bkholdem]

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Why should the citizens of the United States allow anyone who wants to come here the ability to do so?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because freedom to move on public property (and, yes, across the border into the United States) is a fundamental human right that cannot be taken away by a simple majority vote.

Why should someone born on the opposite side of an arbitrary line be prevented from living where they choose, even if it is across said border?

[/ QUOTE ]

I should never have asked. Your response makes it clear that there is no point to us having this discussion. I respect your opinion and right to express it, but I cannot begin to explain how ridiculous I find it.

As a side note, if it were 11 million uneducated, unskilled, poor, english speaking white people, I would still feel the same way. It's not about race for most people.

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Please provide evidence to back up your assertions that ALL (I assume the 11 million # you quote is the estimated total of illegal immigrants in this country) of them are NOT ONLY uneducated, but ALSO poor, AND non english speaking. You assert that he is rediculous and then make this assinine comment? LOL

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You have reading comprehension (and spelling) issues. I made no such assertion, I created a hypothetical situation, hence the word "if".

Additionally, I never stated he was ridiculous, I stated that I think making this a "human rights" issue is ridiculous.

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You are FOS. Please explain to me how you thought up that hypothetical situation. What gave you the idea's to come up with such a specific set of circumstances?

[kurto]

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Let me compliment you that you actually back up your assertions with FACTS. This puts you in the top 1% of 2+2 posters. Since the US population is about 300 million then we could conclude that 19.2 million people of the USA are here illegally (.064 x 300m). Also keep in mind that many illegals that commit minor crimes are flown at tax payer expense back to their home countries and therefore are not in US prisons. KURTO/CARDCOUNTER....Pay attention to this poster! This is how you present a rational argument against me....


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Please tell me you're joking. You make up statistics out of your rear and you're lecturing people about rational arguments.

You're not even clever in your trolling.

[kurto]

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Some people are just uber-confident in their estimations and steadfastly defend what are at best abitrarily formed opinions. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] At least give him credit for admitting he just makes up statistics, then forms policy wishes from those made up statistics.

However, I'm inclined to believe he sincerely believes everything he says, despite the fact that he admits he doesn't have any empirical evidence to support his conclusions, and isn't trolling -- although I admit to having no idea what 'trolling' exactly is.

I think it would be an especially egregious error if he were banned, despite the fact I think he's very wrong.

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Making stuff up then forming policy based on your imaginary numbers is about the worst way to go about forming policies that I can imagine. Its moronic. Heaven forbid should anyone run a company or a country like this.... (insert George Bush joke here)

I wasn't really suggesting he be banned. If only because I don't make these forums and if he gets his jollies being purposively dumb and contrary because he can, who am I say that's wrong. But I would argue that making up stats and being contrary seems to go against the spirit of 2+2. Imagine someone writing poker posts that made up odds in hands that had no bearing on the real situation? (the person disagrees until someone actually does the math and then he acts as if the other people countering him were the ones being irrational) That's essentially what I see him do... he decides how he wants to 'play the hand' then makes up stats to fit his play. (You have an inside straight draw... you're going to hit it with one card to come 50% of the time. Of course you have to call a pot sized bet.) Would it be useful to hear his arguments when he freely admits that he's just making up the statistics?

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I think it would be an especially egregious error if he were banned, despite the fact I think he's very wrong.

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Though I really wasn't rallying that should be banned, I don't know how egregious it would be. Someone who takes his biases and freely admits he makes stuff up to support it isn't really contributing anything except for a chance for people to have fun mocking the many holes in his arguments.

[Felix_Nietzsche]

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I read a post below where you asserted 25% of prisoners are illegal and then praised the person who corected your post for disputing your % with actual statisties.

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My memory was faulty. It is my mistake. I can admit when I'm wrong and I praised the poster for supporting his assertions with a link. This alone made him unique from most posters on this forum who spout opinions without backing these opinions up with supporting facts and arguments. If you have read my posts before, you will know that I often back up my assertions with some type of evidence be it historical examples and actual stats... I got lazy on that particular post and I did not double-check that number on the net...

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Sorry but you don't get to set the default postion and make someone prove you wrong.

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In any freshman logic course, you learn it is impossible to disprove a negative.
If someone asks you why you like to beat up women, the burden of proof is to for THEM to prove that you beat women. Not for you to prove that you do not. This is BASIC LOGIC. If you can't understand this simple concept then I don't know if it is possible to reason with you. I was accused of supporting a border wall because I don't like "brown people". It was a cheap shot and I called him on it. In logic, this is called an "ad hominem" attack.

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I would appreciate it if you either refrained from using %'s or clearly stated that it is your personal estimate when doing so.

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No....I'm not going to write my posts as if it were a legal document with disclaimers, footnotes, and subclauses.... This is a poker forum not a court-of-law. Assume my numbers to be my own personal estimates unless I provide links to support these numbers from another source. Politics is about peoples opinions. I am entitled to my opinions and writing posts in formats that you approve of is not a requirement.
When I write posts, I am usually playing four poker games games, consulting poker tracker, and doing searches on the net. If I make mistakes in spelling or I fail to make my points clear, then I will correct them. I admited my mistake on the 25% figure. My memory was faulty. This may be hard to believe but I'm not trying to be a professional pundit.

As for the border wall, I have cited the success of the Berlin wall which was designed to keep roughly 15 million East Germans from fleeing communism. I use this as an historical example to show that a border wall along the southern border would have the same success..... If you disagree fine. It makes no difference to me...... My life does not revolve around pleasing people in the 2+2 Politics forum....