Bet out or check raise the turn?

Bona · #1 09-25-2006, 06:00 PM

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP3 is an unknown quantity only 9 hands with him. He had played in 2 of them nothing stood out about his play. CO was pretty loose preflop 56% and somewhat loose and passive post flop.

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP3 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls.

I think preflop is pretty standard.

Flop: (10 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP3 raises, CO calls, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

I lead the flop but don't three bet. Would you have? Was the board too dangerous not to try to eliminate some of the villians? If a T,J, or K hits on the turn I have a problem. But if not I feel real good about trying to build the pot on the turn.

Turn: (9 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets, CO calls, BB folds, Hero raises, MP3 calls, CO calls.

At the turn I feel I am probably ahead with the two pair and am presented with 9 outs to the nutflush and 4 outs to a full house. I decided to try to check raise the board and did. Do you think I would have built the pot more, more often by donk betting here and maybe getting a raise? If so would we have lost CO because he had to call 2 at that point? Which way builds a larger pot most often? The other turn question = as played what should I do if it comes back reraised. I was thinking if I was reraised and both were still in I should cap for value given the strong draw but if only one had stayed I should call down?

River: (15 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP3 folds, CO calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB

davelin · #2 09-25-2006, 06:16 PM

I'm 3-betting the flop and leading the turn.

Vern · #3 09-25-2006, 06:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP3 is an unknown quantity only 9 hands with him. He had played in 2 of them nothing stood out about his play. CO was pretty loose preflop 56% and somewhat loose and passive post flop.

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP3 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls.

I think preflop is pretty standard.

Flop: (10 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP3 raises, CO calls, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

I lead the flop but don't three bet. Would you have? Was the board too dangerous not to try to eliminate some of the villians? If a T,J, or K hits on the turn I have a problem. But if not I feel real good about trying to build the pot on the turn.

Turn: (9 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets, CO calls, BB folds, Hero raises, MP3 calls, CO calls.

At the turn I feel I am probably ahead with the two pair and am presented with 9 outs to the nutflush and 4 outs to a full house. I decided to try to check raise the board and did. Do you think I would have built the pot more, more often by donk betting here and maybe getting a raise? If so would we have lost CO because he had to call 2 at that point? Which way builds a larger pot most often? The other turn question = as played what should I do if it comes back reraised. I was thinking if I was reraised and both were still in I should cap for value given the strong draw but if only one had stayed I should call down?

River: (15 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP3 folds, CO calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB

[/ QUOTE ] With CO and BB calling two on the flop, I am jacking this up with a re-raise right then. No reason to try and play anything slow with that many people putting money in the pot.

Falcon1511 · #4 09-25-2006, 06:22 PM

File this one under hands that play themselves. It's hard to play top two pair badly. I think your line is perfectly fine. MP3 showed strength on the flop by 3-betting so you know you have a pretty good chance to c/r. The only hands that have you beat are K10 and a set of Qs Js or Aces. Since you have an Ace and a Queen in your hand, probably not up against a set.

Flop play is eh... I am not sure slow playing top two is a good way to go on a semi-dangerous board. If you are willing to give the pot up if a 10 comes or draw to 4 outs if the pot is right (10.5 to 1 to call on the turn) then just calling the raise is fine if you know that the raiser will bet the turn. In absence of a read on the raiser, you need 3 bet the flop for value.

Your turn play was standard and sound, it probably got the most money in the pot. If you know that your opponent likes to take free cards, you must bet the turn imo. You do not want any free cards on this board. However, if you know your opponent is an auto-turn better if he showed aggression on the flop, then the c/r is fine.

I would probably have played the hand a little more aggressively not knowing anything about MP3. But your c/r worked and it was a great way to get more money out of the CO, if he had to call 2 cold, I am not sure he stays in the pot.

triten · #5 09-25-2006, 06:28 PM

I would have 3-bet the flop. You've got a great hand with 3 other players that have already put in 2 bets. I don't think you would have got rid of anybody, but I could imagine them calling more bets on the flop and then folding the turn.

I like the turn. I don't think I would cap if you get 3-bet here. Without a read you would have to assume you're behind at that point.

CrMenace · #6 09-25-2006, 06:30 PM

*grunch*

[ QUOTE ]
I lead the flop but don't three bet. Would you have? Was the board too dangerous not to try to eliminate some of the villians? If a T,J, or K hits on the turn I have a problem. But if not I feel real good about trying to build the pot on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I would 3-bet. One of those cards will come on 23% of the time on the turn (42% by the river), but you have 3 opponents, so you have enormous equity here. Not to mention that even if one does come, you have some redraws to a chopped pot, a boat, and in some cases a straight.

[ QUOTE ]
At the turn I feel I am probably ahead with the two pair and am presented with 9 outs to the nutflush and 4 outs to a full house. I decided to try to check raise the board and did. Do you think I would have built the pot more, more often by donk betting here and maybe getting a raise? If so would we have lost CO because he had to call 2 at that point? Which way builds a larger pot most often? The other turn question = as played what should I do if it comes back reraised. I was thinking if I was reraised and both were still in I should cap for value given the strong draw but if only one had stayed I should call down?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your plan is good here. If you had been more aggressive on the flop, you could lead, but as played a c/r is good. If you had led, I think a raise was unlikely.

Beanyman101 · #7 09-25-2006, 07:25 PM

I would 3 bet this flop as it's a dangerous board.

You have every reason to think that you have the best hand at this point, but it's vulnerable - I like to be a little more aggressive than you played here.

The turn play looks good, the nine looks a pretty safe card, so you're probably still ahead - it's time to squeeze as much out of the pot as we can. I think that if had you led the turn a raise from MP3 was unlikely, so your c/r gets more money in the pot.

Had you 3 bet the flop, I think a c/r play is less likely to be successful

Fryguy · #8 09-25-2006, 08:10 PM

You have everybody trapped for 3, this should be the easiest flop raise, ever.