Proper River Bet/Fold Line?

Toonces · #1 09-25-2006, 02:47 PM

20/40 game at Resorts East Chicago (that plays similar on online 2/4 game).

I rarely (if ever) make a bet fold, and have a tendency to call down turn or river raises on good hands when I know I'm beaten. I've also been trying to play WA/WB situations properly, which I read this as one.However, after the hand, I had a sick feeling I played it wrong.

Hero holds Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. The maniac is in UTG+1 and raises about 25% of hands today, but often raises close to 50%. Hero has reraised the maniac to isolate a couple of times, something that the maniac has just mentioned to the table prior to this hand. The button is a strong (but not necessarily tricky) player who I don't believe has cold-called yet. The small blind is a calling station.

UTG folds. Maniac Raises. Hero Reraises. 3 folds. Button calls 3 bets. SB calls. Maniac calls.

Flop

13 SB) 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Maniac checks. Hero bets. Button Raises. SB and maniac folds. Hero calls.

(at this point, I am reading the Button for AA-TT or AK, possibly AQ. After the two folds, I'm treating this as WA/WB).

Turn: (8.5 BB) 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero checks. Button Bets. Hero Calls.

(continuing a WA/WB line)

River: (10.5 BB) K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Hero Bets (after a fair pause). River Raises. Hero Folds.

I think that JJ, TT or even 99 has to call me here, so bet/fold seems to be the right line. But is this too big of a pot to fold to a raise? Is it possible that my pause induced a raise from bluffs or worse made hands?

nooob · #2 09-25-2006, 02:49 PM

how about.. 3 bet the flop, and capped, call it down?

Aces McGee · #3 09-25-2006, 03:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hero Bets (after a fair pause).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your line is fine, I just don't like the hesitation before the river bet. I think it increase the chance you got blown off the best hand.

-McGee

Toonces · #4 09-25-2006, 03:17 PM

You may be right, Aces. My hesitation was not intentional. Since I'm not used to a bet/fold line on the river, I was making sure in my mind that it still applied when the overcard hit.

Hobbs. · #5 09-25-2006, 04:11 PM

when you are likely way ahead do not take a wa/wb line. 3-bet the flop and go from there, button's hand is more likely a 88-jj hand rather than AA/KK given his preflop and flop action. given that you have underrepresented your hand postflop you really need to see a SD here.

Aces McGee · #6 09-25-2006, 04:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
when you are likely way ahead do not take a wa/wb line. 3-bet the flop and go from there, button's hand is more likely a 88-jj hand rather than AA/KK given his preflop and flop action. given that you have underrepresented your hand postflop you really need to see a SD here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice post, Hobbs. I confused the maniac with the villain on the river here.

OP, listen to Hobbs, not me. Well, listen to me now, but not before.

-McGee

goofball · #7 09-25-2006, 05:32 PM

Awful hand in my opinion. Either 3bet the flop or checkraise the turn, you're likely way ahead. Find a way to get more money in this pot.

Then you bet and fold the river? Barf! Bet-call and checkcall are both way better then bet-fold. The pot is big you know and his hand doesn't really look like it contains a K anyway.

Toonces · #8 09-25-2006, 05:33 PM

Good point, Hobbs. I do agree that my underplaying it probably hurt the info of the river raise. But do you really think it's likely that 88-JJ raise the river here after a K overcard? I think AK or AKs is a likely hand by villian as well.

BTW, is WA/WB covered in books or articles? I've only found discussion about it here.

phosix · #9 09-25-2006, 05:51 PM

if hes solid i see him having ak of spades its the only one that makes sense to me. since you are rr a lag he doesnt know for sure you have a pp hence the turn bet(for a check behind after). you can safley fold but i felt you were way ahead until the river.

can anyone link up some wa/wb lines from previous 2+2 posts i may have the idea a bit skewed?

Hobbs. · #10 09-25-2006, 05:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Good point, Hobbs. I do agree that my underplaying it probably hurt the info of the river raise. But do you really think it's likely that 88-JJ raise the river here after a K overcard? I think AK or AKs is a likely hand by villian as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's likely you are behind, but not likely enough to make folding more profitable than calling.

[ QUOTE ]

BTW, is WA/WB covered in books or articles? I've only found discussion about it here.

[/ QUOTE ]I've only run into it here, but there are some major misconceptions floating around 2p2 about its applicability. for example, you could argue that (say preflop went you raise in LP, dude 3-bets OTB, and you cap holding AK) on an A33r flop you are WA/WB holding AK (which is true), but I doubt anybody here would advocate calling down if raised on the flop. In this situation we are clearly WA and very rarely WB so taking a line to get us to SD cheaply while not allowing the other person to fold a worse hand with few outs to improve is not a concern.

The standard case is how to deal with when you raise Ax (x < j or so), get 3-bet by a TAG and flop and ace. Here a TAG will often release an underpair if you get aggressive and will 3-bet with better aces. Thus, the most profitable line is usually to allow the villain to keep betting with either his better ace or worse pocket pair.