JJ flop call or raise?

[djb]

PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, BB calls, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, Hero folds.

I'm trying to understand pot odds a little better (OK, at all...) On reviewing this hand, as far as I can see, I had 2 outs to make a set on the turn or 22.5:1 and the pot size is 13:1. But if I take the river into account pot odds are 11:1 so I should call.

But but but, I've got JJ which is a good hand and nobody's been particularly interested so far... So I thought I'd raise - I suppose to get rid of anybody who wasn't really keen, and to see what the SB wanted to do, and anyway calling here seemed a bit wimpy...

Raising doesn't see to fit the pots odds thing, though, so should I have just called? Or are we getting into implied odds territory here? (which I confess I haven't really looked at yet)

When the turn didn't hit, I folded because the pot odds didn't feel right even to call (22:1) against the pot size of 12BB.

Is this on the right lines, or have I misunderstood?

Many thanks

David

[briguin]

two ways I see you can play it

1) (My most likely choice) Raise Flop as you did and fold to reraise. I rather establish aggressiveness and hopefully get a free card. If no free cards are given then I'm done

2) Call it down to the end. Wa/Wb

[VickreyAuction]

[ QUOTE ]
On reviewing this hand, as far as I can see, I had 2 outs to make a set on the turn or 22.5:1 and the pot size is 13:1. But if I take the river into account pot odds are 11:1 so I should call.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't take the river into account, since you aren't going to be able to see it for free. It only matters what the odds of hitting that jack are on the next card. So if the odds are 22.5:1 of you hitting on the next card and you're only getting 13:1, you should fold.

[ QUOTE ]
When the turn didn't hit, I folded because the pot odds didn't feel right even to call (22:1) against the pot size of 12BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you're getting 12:1 on a 22:1 shot, so you should fold.

As for the hand, I think you can just fold the flop. Someone leads and gets 2 callers on an A high flop means that your jacks are probably behind to an ace.

[Marquoz]

[ QUOTE ]

But but but, I've got JJ which is a good hand and nobody's been particularly interested so far...

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, no. SB has bet and raised at every single opportunity postflop. You are almost certainly behind with two outs at best. I would have folded the flop. SB's donk into you with an ace onboard and 4 other players means you're ahead about never. As played, yes, fold the turn.

[DrModern]

The flop raise is a really bad idea. You, as you said, do not even have the pot odds to call, and with a bettor and two callers you are often behind. You have a few more outs for a backdoor straight draw and there is a small chance you are still ahead since this is uber nano limits. Even so, a flop fold is probably best, and it's good pratice to learn to do it anyway, as the nanos are often preparation for legit micro play, where you should fold this basically every time.

[Shillx]

I don't know how bad the play is at nanos but this flop is call or fold in all the games I've played in. With the J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] I might call and I'd probably just fold w/o it. Raising is easily the worst option on the flop.

[loyalguard]

[ QUOTE ]
On reviewing this hand, as far as I can see, I had 2 outs to make a set on the turn or 22.5:1...

[/ QUOTE ]

As Marqouz said...you have two outs at best. You have to discount further because the J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] puts three to a flush on the board as well as three broawdway cards. At best I say you have 1.25 outs.

[Burning_K]

On the flop, the odds of 11:1 to hit by the river only apply if you know nobody will bet the turn (costing you another bet), which is highly improbable here.

I think with the Ace on the flop, a bet and two calls in front of you and another player behind you, you're usually pretty screwed here most of the time. I guess the pot is big though and we do have an unlikely backdoor straight available (plus maybe all the limping preflop suggests that there aren't a lot of great hands you're up against). I'd probably call the flop and if the turn is of no use to us fold to any action in front of us (as what happened in your hand).
If we did hit a jack we'd be in a good position to re-raise if SB bets the turn and has callers.
If SB was predictable and the pot were small then I'd probably fold the flop.

Saying that I don't really know a great deal so I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong.

[btspider]

i fold the flop.. you've got nothing vs a bet and two callers. J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] could give someone the flush too.