"Jerry Falwell is more dangerous to America than Osama Bin Laden"

[morphball]

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Iraqi Insurgents have killed 2,600 americans so far (that we know of), Osama, 2,990.

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The friends I've lost in Iraq, to include my senior scout who died in my arms following an IED blast 3 years ago, died fighting the insurgency. President Bush didn't plant that IED; a piece of [censored] Iraqi insurgent did.

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GWB was advised that his proposed number of troops was insufficient to occupy a post-Saddam Iraq. He did not listen, and now the insurgency rages out of control.

Maybe, that particular IED would have wound up there anyways, but how many people have died because GWB did not listen. (Btw, GWB ignored his advisorys not because he thought his instincts were better than theirs, rather he ignored the recommendations because he didn't want political backlash in the next election. I.e., he said if I send the proper number of soldiers over there, I'll have a hard time winning the next election. In other words, he spent your lives for his own gain.)

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anyone who thinks that some guy half way around the globe is a greater threat to average americans than US corporate interests (WAR), lead by GWB has been doing an excellent job listening to what they are told by the corporate media.

You are not in danger from arab nationalism, the real threat is to american business interests in the middle east. That is why the media is so keen to vilify islam.

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Sounds like you believe America causes Terrorism. Suppose we remove all business interests from the Middle East and completely disengage diplomatically and economically, we become safer, right? The summation of this mentality is that all we need to do to ensure our safety is not to piss off Islamic Jihadist Terrorists. This appeasement line of thinking is a recipe for disaster and more dead Americans. If you can explain how it's possible to reason with a group of people who's starting point is killing every American, please enlighten me.

Islamic Jihadist Terrorists cause terrorism, not America, business interests or otherwise.

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I agree with you completely on this point...

[bluesbassman]

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George Bush has killed 2,600 americans so far (that we know of), Osama, 2,990.

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Using this method, FDR killed at least 200,000 Americans in WWII. That makes him far, far worse than Osama or Bush... right?

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anyone who thinks that some guy half way around the globe is a greater threat to average americans than US corporate interests (WAR), lead by GWB has been doing an excellent job listening to what they are told by the corporate media.


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Yeah, Microsoft and Wal-Mart threaten my very existence (chortle, chortle). And if you believe that, you've been brainwashed by leftist class struggle nonsense just as much as a religion fundie has been brainwashed by theistic, dogmatic nonsense. They are two sides of the same irrational coin.

As a matter of fact, if you're *really* worried that "corporate interests" are corrupting the government, you'd be in favor of a complete separation of the state and economics (i.e. laissez-faire capitalism) for similar reasons many of us favor separation of the state and the church.

[bdk3clash]

Here's the relevant part of the transcript (which can be read in its entirety here.

<snip>
CARLSON: I want to get your take on this. This is a pretty inflammatory op-ed from a woman we like very much on the show and I like personally, Rosa Brooks, wrote in the “L.A. Times” today. She writes about what she calls quote, “A conservative crusade to purge universities of liberal professor.” A pretty tall order as far as I‘m concerned.

Here‘s what she wrote, quote, “Last week they insisted that universities be purged of liberals and quote, “improved to serve national security and they urged students to “strongly criticize the continued presence of liberal and secular professors.” Oh, wait she writes, whoops! Those quotes were from respectively—Ayatollah Abbasali, Amid Zanjani, the hard-line Islamist president of the University of Tehran and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Silly me getting my militant conservative Islamic extremists mixed up with my militant conservative Judeo Christian extremists! Now though I think about it they seem to have an awful lot in common.” This is a line I‘ve been seeing a lot from the left recently Sam Seder that really there‘s not really that much difference separating say Jerry Falwell from Osama bin Laden, they‘re all religious nuts. This is, not only is it wrong it‘s bad politics I think. What do you think of that argument?

SEDER: Well I mean I don‘t know that it‘s bad politics necessarily. I mean that‘s for someone else to answer, but I can tell you this that I think that clearly we have a problem around the world with fundamentalism. And now I don‘t think that Jerry Falwell is as violent as Osama bin Laden. But clearly you know you have a guy here who has this fundamentalist agenda and frankly I think he‘s more of a danger to America than Osama bin Laden.

CAMPBELL: Oh jeez, come on. Come on.

CARLSON: Wait, slow down, I want to hear. Did you just say you believe Jerry Falwell, annoying though he may be, is more dangerous to the United States than Osama bin Laden who killed 3,000 people on 9/11?

SEDER: Yes, I think when I talk about America I‘m talking about American values and about the constitution and about the way our founding fathers set up this country. And while I think Osama bin Laden

CARLSON: I have to say, you‘re living in a parallel universe I think.

SEDER: Osama bin Laden creates a danger to us really in terms of just how far we will go to destroy the constitution like George Bush wants to do or break the Geneva Conventions.

CARLSON: Let me just suggest. That‘s why liberals—I mean as much as the Republicans really have screwed up I think in a profound historic way, I‘m not defending them at all, that‘s why liberals aren‘t in charge because they actually believe that Jerry Falwell is more of a danger than Osama bin Laden.

SEDER: I‘m not ...

CARLSON: I know, but I‘m just saying people with those views like John Kerry never get elected because it scares the hell out of people.

SEDER: I don‘t know that John Kerry agrees with that but I certainly will make the case.

CAMPBELL: You know, come on Sam. Is Rosie O‘Donnell channeling through your body today, come on, give me a break.

SEDER: I‘m sorry?

CAMPBELL: I said is Rosie O‘Donnell channeling through your body.

This is the same crap she put on “The View” the other day.

SEDER: I‘m not a fan of Rosie O‘Donnell, what are you talking about?

CAMPBELL: This is the same crap she put out on “The View” the other day. You know exactly what I‘m talking about Sam.

SEDER: I‘m sorry?
</snip>

To me this isn't a particularly interesting topic of debate because it involves terms that mean different things to different people. In particular, the phrase "dangerous to America" could refer to just about anything, depending on who's saying it.

I think Seder does a decent job of at least defining his terms and making his case, in particular when he says:

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SEDER: Yes, I think when I talk about America I‘m talking about American values and about the constitution and about the way our founding fathers set up this country. And while I think Osama bin Laden...creates a danger to us really in terms of just how far we will go to destroy the constitution like George Bush wants to do or break the Geneva Conventions.

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[CORed]

No question that Bin Laden and others like him have the desire to destroy us altogether. However, the desire does not equal the capability. While we certainly shouldn't ignore Bin Laden and other terrorists, we need to recognize that what is needed is intelligence work and law enforcement, not a world war. Infiltrating terrorist groups and arresting or killing their membership will protect us. Invading an occupying countries with little connection to terrorists with a force completely inadequate to accomplish the mission and leadership that make Larry, Moe and Cury look competent won't. Neither will concentration camps, kidnappings and "agressive interogation" (torture).

[bluffe]

Also from the show:

"CAMPBELL: First of all, what constitutes torture? You know we talked about this last week on the program. You want to talk torture let‘s talk John McCain, Hanoi Hilton, hooking somebody‘s genitals up to a car battery, that constitutes torture. At Gitmo they‘re talking about sleep deprivation, they‘re talking about loud noise, hypothermia. According to those dictates I guess I‘m torturing my family because I keep the air conditioning kind of low at home.

I don‘t remember the last time I got eight hours sleep like they get at Gitmo. And loud noise my daughter is torturing me by turning the stereo up. I mean come on, give me a break. These guys get eight hours, they get five times to pray every day, they‘re on a three meal a day. Do you know they get 4,200 calories a day and they also got Subway and filet of fish McDonald‘s at Club Gitmo."

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [censored] idiot.

[steve9789]

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GWB was advised that his proposed number of troops was insufficient to occupy a post-Saddam Iraq. He did not listen, and now the insurgency rages out of control.

Maybe, that particular IED would have wound up there anyways, but how many people have died because GWB did not listen. (Btw, GWB ignored his advisorys not because he thought his instincts were better than theirs, rather he ignored the recommendations because he didn't want political backlash in the next election. I.e., he said if I send the proper number of soldiers over there, I'll have a hard time winning the next election. In other words, he spent your lives for his own gain.

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Do you have any proof to offer supporting the advice he received and his purported statements?

[SNOWBALL]

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How do you define dangerous? Terrorism against america isn't very dangerous for the most part.


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I'd like you to explain this to the families of 3,000 dead Americans.

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Wow, good argument there... NOT!

Terrorism isn't a very big deal. It's hardly relevant at all to the quality of life experienced by americans. There are almost definitely some individuals in politics who have done and will do more harm to americans as a whole than osama bin laden or any other terrorist figure. I don't know if Jerry Falwell is one of them or not, but it's not a completely ludicrous idea.