(60) TT overpair in EP - Page 2

sandsmarc · #11 09-18-2006, 10:36 AM

I hate the pre-flop limp with TT. UTG raises get a small respect bonus anyway so I'd raise to 40-60 just to define my hand. I think in general it is simpler to play good but not great hands early in tournaments with raises rather than limps. Cold calls and 3-bets are much more meaningful when they follow an UTG raise.

pooh74 · #12 09-18-2006, 10:48 AM

I think all of this talk about PF UTG is sort of silly and is a matter of preference and also a matter of your early game post-flop atyle and how disciplined, and frankly, how good you are.

As an arbitrary line, and I admit it is arbitrary, I would limp TT and raise JJ...but these are just personal preferences and it depends on the table (but how well do we know a table at L1?) So, I liked you PF play and I think betting the flop is pretty mandatory.

I know I havent said anything new here per-se, but I was moved to write this because of all of the forum chatter about "what the 'right' move is with JJ/TT PF UTG"...I just don't get it. Neither is a mistake...I prefer raising JJ and sometimes TT, but it doesn't make that huge a difference and also, buy-in is hugely relevant here. When people are throwing their stacks at you at low BIs when they CAll your TT pf raise with A7 and hit a 7, then raising is good. At a 60, this is not the case usually, so at least tt is a good limp there.

If you have notes that three guys behind you at a 60 tend to be loose donk spewers, then a raise might be good.

durron597 · #13 09-18-2006, 10:52 AM

if you guys are going to play TT for set value by limping it in ep, then continue to play it that way on the flop. i'm check calling the flop, maybe leading a safe turn or something, but once i've limped TT in ep I've committed myself to keeping the pot small oop when I flop an overpair.

pooh74 · #14 09-18-2006, 11:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
if you guys are going to play TT for set value by limping it in ep, then continue to play it that way on the flop. i'm check calling the flop, maybe leading a safe turn or something, but once i've limped TT in ep I've committed myself to keeping the pot small oop when I flop an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally this is correct, but if you only have 1 or 2 callers and you get a flop like OP's, then why not bet? Of course, if you're calling a PF raise after your limp, then it gets tricky, but I think betting is better then Cring and and also better then check folding on OP's flop here.

Melchiades · #15 09-18-2006, 12:24 PM

I don't like betting into the preflop raiser here at all. We don't have a monster. What do we do if we are raised or called by the preflop raiser? Fold? Check-fold turn? Do we bet with any two cards we limped with here? I am checking here if I limped preflop. Basicly what durron said. Check and see what happens, probably call but it depends on what button and SB does as well. I have no idea why everyone loves betting into the preflop raiser in a multiway pot here.

pooh74 · #16 09-18-2006, 12:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like betting into the preflop raiser here at all. We don't have a monster. What do we do if we are raised or called by the preflop raiser? Fold? Check-fold turn? Do we bet with any two cards we limped with here? I am checking here if I limped preflop. Basicly what durron said. Check and see what happens, probably call but it depends on what button and SB does as well. I have no idea why everyone loves betting into the preflop raiser in a multiway pot here.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're going to treat this hand strictly as a "no-set, no bet" type hand, then you are correct. Then again, if you're going to think about taking a check-call approach where you have an over-pair to the board, then betting is better then check-calling and it is much cheaper to find out where you're at.

Again, if "no-set, no-bet" then be weak-tight a$$ and check-fold.

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

nuggetz87 · #17 09-18-2006, 12:40 PM

i think by playing TT UTG only for set value you lose the value gained by playing raised pots postflop vs. idiots who will call your UTG raise light with hands like A8 and K8. you may be OOP most of the time, but i still think it's better raising.

who knows, maybe it doesn't make much a difference longterm. also you guys are right about being consistent with play in this hand. i guess if he limps preflop then calls a raise, he has to shut down to some postflop aggression without a set.

Melchiades · #18 09-18-2006, 12:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Then again, if you're going to think about taking a check-call approach where you have an over-pair to the board, then betting is better then check-calling and it is much cheaper to find out where you're at.

Again, if "no-set, no-bet" then be weak-tight a$$ and check-fold.

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
If you don't want to play this hand cautiously, raise preflop. It's that simple. Also betting might make the hand easier to play since you can fold to a raise from the PF raiser, but then again you might just as well have any two cards here. Also you let your opponent play perfectly and you don't get a c-bet out of whiffed overcards. Betting feels pretty close to plain bad for me. Check call, see what happens on the turn. If he fires again, play poker. Probably fold unless he is very two barrel happy.

By leading out into the preflop raiser here in a multiway pot we are showing real strength, we are repping much more strength than we actually have. That makes the hand easy to play since we are basicly bluffing with a marginal made hand, but is not the way to get value out of our hand.

durron597 · #19 09-18-2006, 01:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]

If you're going to treat this hand strictly as a "no-set, no bet" type hand, then you are correct. Then again, if you're going to think about taking a check-call approach where you have an over-pair to the board, then betting is better then check-calling and it is much cheaper to find out where you're at.

Again, if "no-set, no-bet" then be weak-tight a$$ and check-fold.

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

most people aren't firing 3 barrels here with AK. You can call the flop, call the turn, and probably fold river if an ace doesn't hit.

You fold the best hand / call with a worse hand some of the time but honestly that's the price you pay for trying to play TT in an unraised pot.

Let's say you raise preflop, get the same 1 caller who would have limped, and now a guy raises. His range is obviously much tighter and you have a much better idea of what his hand is.

Also, check call flop, lead turn and fold to a raise is a pretty good way to find out whether he has an overpair bigger than yours.

schwza · #20 09-18-2006, 01:33 PM

i would lead flop. the pfr will be hard-pressed to do anything but fold if he doesn't have you beat with so many people left to act (sb is a likely check-raiser). you're sort of letting him play perfectly, but sometimes that's still the best choice, and sometimes he will be dumb and call with 77.

if the pfr plays then i shut down. i'd be willing to get it in against one of the others though.