[2/4+] A line I'm getting sick of paying off

[JJH3984]

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm in the BB and I cold call you there, you have 0 outs. If a good TAG cold calls there, which might be different from me, CC there, AK is done. The won't have K9 here. Just check the turn, and call the river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is the optimal way to play your big hands. From the villians perspective, if I'm a TAG which I am, I'm either bet/threebetting or check/threebetting, depending on my relative position to the preflop raiser.

I see lower PP's, A + bottom pair, ect. Make this kind of call all the time.

[Xhad]

Hrm. I must get a lot of aggro fish or something. My major criticism of that flop coldcall is that it telegraphs your hand!

[JJH3984]

[ QUOTE ]
Hrm. I must get a lot of aggro fish or something. My major criticism of that flop coldcall is that it telegraphs your hand!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I don't do it against good players. I don't do it against bad players because you can often get more value by fastplaying the flop, especially in position.

[cpk]

In live 12/24ish games I see a lot of people cold-call with crap, but I agree that the turn c/r almost always means a set.

I never did understand this play--that's a totally awful time to delay a raise. Here you have two people showing aggression on the flop--(a) both of them can't be bluffing, so you won't lose them both, (b) slowplaying is totally transparent and will allow them to read your hand, (c) people 3-bet with TPWK all the freaking time, (d) the pot is still small and it's time to build it.

[alul]

Let's keep being hypothetical. Suppose you are SB and made a set on the flop (777). Your play?

[Harv72b]

[grunch]
It usually is a set. But this is limit & it doesn't have to be a retard (or a chop) very often to make calling down worthwhile. Although with a firm read on your opponent as reasonable & dumb enough to take this kind of line every time, you can fold TPTK to the turn c/r...it's just that you're rarely, if ever, going to have that firm a read on your opponent.

As far as checking behind the turn, you obviously can't do that because you are going to be giving up way too much value long run vs. all the donks that'll play the flop the same way & check/call the turn with pocket fours, a weaker king, a seven, a deuce, ace high, a gutshot...you name it. You have to bet this turn, with the sole exception being if you are in a heads up pot vs. a good, thinking, aggressive opponent who will fold a worse hand to your turn bet but will bet or check/call the river if you check through the turn. And, again, you are very rarely going to find yourself in that scenario...even a lot of TAGs will check/call the turn with an underpair or hands like KQ. Some will check/raise it, too, which again makes it necessary to call down...even if you're losing to a set most of the time.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

[/grunch]

[JJH3984]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's keep being hypothetical. Suppose you are SB and made a set on the flop (777). Your play?

[/ QUOTE ]

On this board, I would Bet/Threebet sometimes, Bet/Call/Donk the turn sometimes, Bet/Call/Checkraise the turn sometimes, depending on the action and my read on my opponents.

[Xhad]

So like I thought about this some more and realized that while my inclination was to start checking behind on the turn and take a showdown, that makes no sense unless someone would c/r with a pair...which basically never happens. Ultimately I'm just trying to get to the river/showdown, but that makes no sense because most of the time I'm c/r'ed I was drawing dead and lose the same amount of money anyway, if I can bring myself to fold. Which I think I can now. Thanks all. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[Ebonwoulfe]

In your hypothetical situation, realize that the SB called two cold on a drawless board. Anytime that anyone calls two cold on a board like this, a little klaxon should go off, and veterans of Pearl Harbor should dive under the table.

edit: I always like to post before reading the rest. I see that this has been well covered. I think people who say "Bet because you have TPTK" are missing out on the reality of the situation. You are in a way ahead/way behind scenario. In a WA/WB scenario, you want to get to showdown as cheaply as possible.

[W. Deranged]

EVERYONE NEEDS TO REALIZE THAT CHECKING BEHIND THIS TURN IS NOT EVEN AN OPTION THAT SHOULD REMOTELY BE CONSIDERED.

As played, bet the turn, and then decide to fold or call down based on your opponent. This is a super-easy calldown against basically everyone in 6max. In a full-ring game, you should be folding some amount of the time (like 40% seems right to me) based on your reads of your opponents.