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#1
09-14-2006, 10:20 AM
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Switching to NL
When I first started playing limit poker full time, many years ago (or so it seems), I kept a kind of diary here at 2+2 that allowed others to live vicariously through my exploits. For me it served another purpose though. I got very valuable feedback from good players regarding my play that helped me to improve much more quickly that would have been possible otherwise.
So now I think I may try the same thing with No Limit. I don’t know if weekly updates are the way to go, but I hope to make occasional posts here. So some quick background. I’ve played limit poker several hours a day for almost 4 years now. The only no limit I’ve played is in tournaments, but I play at least 2 tournaments a day so I’m not a complete newbie. I’ve discovered in the last 10 days though that I don’t know nearly as much as I thought I did. I’ve chosen the $200 NL game at Party to begin with and I’m playing 4 tables at a tine. Let me start with some hard numbers. I came out of the gate fast, winning a nice amount in each of my first 3 sessions. Around $500 total, over 7 hours of play. Then reality set in. Over the next 5 days I lost $1500. I don’t have the exact numbers because I play tournaments out of the same bankroll, and my total bankroll took a $2K hit. I finally had a better day yesterday and won $550 in 5 hours of play. During the losing streak, there is no doubt I ran bad. 8 times I flopped a set and lost the pot. 3 times in set under set situations and the others to flushes and straights. But for all that I can be honest enough to observe that I’m not winning enough on my good hands, and I paid off way too often when I was beat. To be honest, I’ve seen mostly straight forward play in these games. I’m so used to the agro-limit games where flop and turn raises could mean anything, that I’m calling or re-raising way too often. One example, I raise in mp with AQo and get called by the button and the BB. Flop is A96 rainbow. I bet ¾ of the pot and get called by the button and raised in the BB. Today, I know now in these games I’m not ahead here, but in my limit brain I need to define my hand better so I re-raised. Now the button pushed, and the BB called in a nano-second. Even limit Dave knew he was beat now and I folded to see 66 and 99 flipped over. $50 I didn’t need to lose right there. I’ve been scouring the SSNL archives and there is some great material in there. Hopefully I’m absorbing some of the experience, but like anything else there is no substitute for actually playing. I’ve always been pretty tight in my starting hand selection, and after only 1 week playing NL I’ve tightened up even more in EP. AJ has hit the trash pile from EP and KJ and QJ are gone from my MP arsenal. On the other hand from the CO and button, I’m playing almost anything if the price is right. Almost all my big pot wins have come from unusual hands in LP cracking aces and Kings. I’ve also dropped a lot of the hands I’ll play from the blinds, simply because it’s difficult to get the big bet in OOP. Quite simply the lesson of position has really been driven home by playing thousands of NL hands. I used to groan every time my AA or KK won simply the blinds. Now I sigh with relief when my raise goes uncalled. I’ve also devalued the importance of being suited. Draws get very expensive in NL. Although so many players don’t seem to have any idea how to size their bets, so sometimes you can get the right price to draw. In general the level of play at $200 NL seems to be very beatable. Most players are pretty easy to read. I have been very successful in winning lots of small pots. I have been much less successful winning the big pots. As a result my stack size grows slowly over several hours, only to be decimated in one hand. In the past week this pattern has repeated a lot. I seem to go on a mini tilt too after losing a stack, sometimes leading to subsequent losses. So going forward I need to learn how to make my winning pots bigger, and how to get away from my losers. Here’s a laydown I made yesterday, I’m not sure it was right but it felt right. I raise in mp with 66. Only the BB calls. Flop is QT2. We both have around $200. I bet $10 and he calls (pot now $33). Turn is a 6. I bet $25 and again he calls. River is a J and now he pushes all in. Yuck. Did he really play AK like this? Even if he had a bigger set, wouldn’t he be afraid of AK here? Anyway, I’m so tired of being stacked that I let it go. Here’s a call I made that I think I was getting the right price on. I raised with black Tens and got 3 callers. Flop was Jc Td 8c. I bet $20 into the $25 pot, and got called in one spot, then the BB made it $60 to go. Q9 was my first thought. $40 to me and $125 in the pot and I called. The other player folded. Turn is the 7c and now he pushed. He had me covered and I had $130 left. To win $300. Ten probable outs, 8 possible club outs, and of course the small chance I’m already ahead. So I called. He actually had 97 so I also had 3 9’s to chop. Of course I missed them all, but it would seem this call was good. My favorite hand of the week. 2 weak limpers so I took a flop from the button with 97o. The flop was Ac 3d 2c. Checked around to me and I took a stab at it for $5. The bb folded but both limpers called. In my mind I’m done with this hand. Turn was the Kh. Checked to me again and I throw in the towel. Both of them were the kind of player to chase the flush no matter how much I bet, and they will also call down with an Ace, so in short I don’t see any way to win this pot. I check too. River is a J, no flush and once again they check to me and I check as well. Imagine my surprise when my 9 high wins the pot. Questions I have for any regulars in these games are how often do you find yourself pushing all in and in what situations? I’ve read in the archives about trying to get all in on the flop with big hands, but how do you go about that? Typically I have $200 in my stack and the pot will be $10-$20 on the flop. Do you really overbet that much and get called? To be honest, I can’t recall pushing all-in before the river even once in 10 days. My goals for the next week are to eliminate the times I call all-ins while behind. Not much you can do about the times you get all in while ahead and get drawn out on. I also need to find a way to get more value for my winning hands. I’m not sure if that means betting the pot instead of ½ to 2/3 on the flop. I like to make my real bets and my c-bets the same size, so do I increase the c-bet size as well? So much to work on. Thanks for listening. 
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#2
09-14-2006, 10:41 AM
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Re: Switching to NL
David, I am very excited to see that you intend to do posts similar to your limit days. I earned a lot of $$$ based on what I learned from those posts (and replies).
I am in a similar situation as yourself--moving from NL from limit. Although I did not play as high as you did in L. If it's any consolation, I can relate to man of the points you made in your post. FWIW here are some of my observations: a) players play very straightforwardly--especially at the buy-in you are playing. My guess is that the $200 game translates roughly to $3/$6 limit in terms of aggression and and trickiness. b) calling down is bad. This is a pretty obvious statement, but for limit players it is such a huge part of the game that it's hard to break the tendency. c) almost no one bluff raises the turn or river. This is similar to (a) but, if you get raised on these streets and you've represented your hand well, re-evaluate. d) winning lots of small and few big pots. This seems to happen to many new L-to-NL players (including myself). e) stats that I found useful in L aren't so useful in NL. For example, WTSD/W$SD were huge states for me in limit, but few hands go to showdown in no-limit. I am assuming from your comments about your pre-flop standards, that you are playing full--why not 6-max? I look forward to reading you future posts as well as reading what many well-respected posters have to say. Best of luck in your transition.
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#5
09-14-2006, 09:58 PM
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Re: Switching to NL
Looking forward to hearing everything you have to say..I was late to the party in recards to your limit play..It all ready sounds like you are well on your way to being a successful NL player...Keep posting
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#6
09-14-2006, 10:14 PM
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Re: Switching to NL
I started playing limit at the time you were writting your weekly updates, I found them pretty inspiring at the time. Interestingly I pretty much set poker aside for the last year and I've just picked up NL, lthough at smaller stakes than yourself.
I look forward to any contributions you may have. Best of luck to you.
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#7
09-14-2006, 10:22 PM
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Re: Switching to NL
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#9
09-14-2006, 10:59 PM
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Re: Switching to NL
[ QUOTE ]
I raise in mp with 66. Only the BB calls. Flop is QT2. We both have around $200. I bet $10 and he calls (pot now $33). Turn is a 6. I bet $25 and again he calls. River is a J and now he pushes all in. Yuck. Did he really play AK like this? Even if he had a bigger set, wouldn’t he be afraid of AK here? Anyway, I’m so tired of being stacked that I let it go. [/ QUOTE ] I don't get it. Did you check to him on the river and he shoved? If so, I think that's a very weak line on the river there. [ QUOTE ] Questions I have for any regulars in these games are how often do you find yourself pushing all in and in what situations? I’ve read in the archives about trying to get all in on the flop with big hands, but how do you go about that? Typically I have $200 in my stack and the pot will be $10-$20 on the flop. Do you really overbet that much and get called? To be honest, I can’t recall pushing all-in before the river even once in 10 days. [/ QUOTE ] Usually you're not going to put in a big overbet on the flop and get called. The way to get it all in is to bet hard and 3-bet your premium flops. You should do this whenever you feel you have the best hand. You'll be surprised how quickly someone with TPTK wants to get their money in against your set if you have been betting the flop hard frequently. Make sure to bluff the flop the same way, as well as semi-bluff if you feel your opponents are paying attention to what you're doing. [ QUOTE ] I’m not sure if that means betting the pot instead of ½ to 2/3 on the flop. I like to make my real bets and my c-bets the same size, so do I increase the c-bet size as well? [/ QUOTE ] exactly. You should try to control the size of the pot in every hand. When you want the pot to get bigger (draws and premium hands) you should jam the crap out of it. When you want to keep it relatively small (c-bets, some draws, TPTK, etc), make smaller bets. Position should also be a factor here (big pots are much more dangerous to play out of position). I beleive that learning to control the pot is the most important factor when switching from limit to NL. Here's an example of how to get it all in on the flop: No Limit Holdem Ring game Blinds: $1/$2 5 players Stack sizes: UTG: $314.40 CO: $190.80 Button: $209.60 SB: $24.40 Hero (BB): $200.00 Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] UTG calls, CO folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $8</font>, SB folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $26</font>, UTG calls, Button folds. Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($61, 2 players) <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $55</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $120</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $174 and is all-in</font>, UTG calls. Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($409, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $409) River: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($33.2, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $409) Results: Final pot: $409 Hero shows A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] UTG shows A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Villain was 45/6/1.7 over 108 hands. edit: in hindsight, that example blows, since over 12% of my stack is already in preflop, which is unusual.
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