10-25 LIVE Borgreezy hand, bottom two vs. triplxxx from FTP

[Enzyme]

No offense to anyone, but if he didn't post that villain CR AI, there would probably be less people advising to check behind on the turn. IMO there is nothing wrong with the plan of betting the turn and folding to the CR, assuming that likelihood of villain CR twice in a row with the hand we beat is much bigger than CR with the draw and assuming that he calls with a very wide range of hands on the turn (looks like a pretty safe assumption).

I certainly understand the desire to check behind and call the river and keep yourself out of tough spots, but IMO that leaves a lot of money on the table. Besides, if one is not willing to be in tough spots, one might as well choose to not play short-handed deep stack poker against loose unpredictable players with no respect for money.

[NT!]

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No offense to anyone, but if he didn't post that villain CR AI, there would probably be less people advising to check behind on the turn.

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No offense to you, but if you read HSNL this is a pretty clear check behind regardless of what villain did, because a shove is obviously going to make hero puke.

NT

[Enzyme]

NT!
This doesn't make much sense. If hero has AK and the board is rainbow, the 8k shove into 3k pot would still make him puke. Are you suggesting checking that behind against a calling station too? If you would say that we don't want to call pot-sized bet on the river or you say that you think that CR is very likely here, then fine, I understand that. But when you say Hero should not bet, because there is a possibility of getting CR AI, without comparing it to possibility of getting called by worse hands and weighting expectation of both, that's just wrong. Hero is not committed to call CR.

[NT!]

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This doesn't make much sense. If hero has AK and the board is rainbow, the 8k shove into 3k pot would still make him puke.

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First, hero DOESN'T have AK. Second, if that shove would make him puke he might consider checking that hand behind too. But that shove doesn't bother me nearly so much vs. this villain.

Part of the reason the shove makes him puke with this hand is that hands like A4, A5 etc are all beating you as well as the usual monsters under the bed. Also hands like Ax of clubs have way more outs against you than they do against AK.

Personally, if I really thought villain had the NFD on the flop, I'd be more inclined to 3bet flop or bet the turn and call a push. But if the turn push is going to make hero sick (which it obviously would and did) he needs to check it back and play poker on the river.

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Are you suggesting checking that behind against a calling station too?

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Yeah, I pretty much make my posts in a vacuum without considering the [censored] dissertation OP wrote about this villain.

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But when you say Hero should not bet, because there is a possibility of getting CR AI, without comparing it to possibility of getting called by worse hands and weighting expectation of both, that's just wrong. Hero is not committed to call CR.

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Of course, why would I bother to consider whether hero is getting called by any worse hands before I post? That would make way too much sense. This villain can easily shove a lot of worse hands, and can also easily be getting tricky with hands that currently have you crushed. He is going to flat call you very rarely and if he does you should probably be almost as scared as if he shoved, if not more. THAT is why the checkraise makes Hero puke and that is why he should check back.

NT

[Enzyme]

See, this is what I don't understand. You are not inclined to think he has a NFD (I assume if you 3-bet the flop, you call a push). All the hand you name are way ahead of hero, so noone is puking if they push, you just fold your hand and move on, in fact, you are happy that he is pushing them, so you can fold and avoid costly mistakes on the river. As for villain pushing with many worse hands, I just don't agree with this. Also I don't agree with villain not calling with many worse hands (see 97o hand).

Look, I'm not here to convince everybody I'm right or anything, I'm here to learn. There is no need to bite my head off. OP made a very detailed post, which assumes this hand is not obvious, at least to him. You obviously read everything very carefully and considered all the possibilities, including 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], before you decided to submit your one-liner response without any analysis.

[thabadguy]

CALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALL

[BobboFitos]

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CALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALL

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[BobboFitos]

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what about re-raising the flop? you have 2 pair vs. a LAG player 4 handed. I think you'll see him fold a lot of hands there.

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WHY DOES HE WANT HIM TO FOLD, HE HAS 2 PAIR

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Problems with calling AI- I don't see that he has anything your way ahead of, and you could be drawing very slim.

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DID YOU EVEN READ THE OTHER HANDS?

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looks like AcXc more than anything. maybe A5cc.

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I BET XXx IS A STRONG POSSIBILITY

[BobboFitos]

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he's got you beat here at least half the time. he could also have AQ/AJcc here. i'd have three-bet flop. as played, fold.

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IF HE HAS HIM BEAT ONLY HALF THE TIME, THIS IS AN EASY CALL. DO YOU SEE WHY?

[BobboFitos]

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No offense to anyone, but if he didn't post that villain CR AI, there would probably be less people advising to check behind on the turn.

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No offense to you, but if you read HSNL this is a pretty clear check behind regardless of what villain did, because a shove is obviously going to make hero puke.

NT

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NO, YOU CALL, AND SAY "LOLER NICE MOVE"