Searching for a better way to play QQ

[krishan]

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Check-call down from the get go? That allows your opponents to play more or less perfectly against you. There is value to be had here.

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Not necessarily. I think some villains will bet AK all the way down. The problem with jamming like the OP did is you pay through the nose with a relatively weak hand given the preflop action.

Consider villains range as 99+, AK, AQ, AJ discounted 50% and I think just calling down with show FAR better profit than OPs line. Add in some more hands Nate if you like and I'll do some off the cuff calcs.

I like OP's line a lot more if we fold to the turn raise.

Krishan

[HEIFER]

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This looks awful to me. I wouldn't mind check calling down. Maybe I'm weak tight.

Krishan

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Thanks for your reply Krishan, I have to argue about your thinking this is awful. I honestly dont see any awfulness in this play. I presume you feel that way from his stats, but yet we still have an over pair to a very drawy board. I am sure your not considered weak in your play for what its worth.

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Check-call down from the get go? That allows your opponents to play more or less perfectly against you. There is value to be had here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily. I think some villains will bet AK all the way down. The problem with jamming like the OP did is you pay through the nose with a relatively weak hand given the preflop action.

Consider villains range as 99+, AK, AQ, AJ discounted 50% and I think just calling down with show FAR better profit than OPs line. Add in some more hands Nate if you like and I'll do some off the cuff calcs.

I like OP's line a lot more if we fold to the turn raise.

Krishan

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If we give the opponent this range:

88+,AJs+,KQs,AQo+

...then hero is about a 60-40 favorite on this board. He's actually ahead a little more often than that on the flop because opponent generally has more outs when behind. And frankly I think that range is a little bit tight; there's a lot of preflop posturing in the 6-max.

Not only that, but this is a 3-way hand, and this board will hit a lot of SB's range with drawing or second-best made hands. I either want to put pressure on him by betting into the Button, as hero did, or by check-raising and collecting value.

[HEIFER]

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I'd checkraise the flop here. You get the most value if button holds AK/AQ (or some other Ax) since he will usually bet/call but not raise. Its also unlikely that sb will fold anything you want him to fold if its two to him, so I'd rather try to extract 2 bets from him by checkraising (we have 2 queens so we need to discount a bunch of the straight draws as well...meaning a lot of sb's hands have few outs against us).

Also, I'd rather get 2-3 flop bets in here than 1-4 (assuming your plan is to bet/3bet).

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Hey Llama thanks for your reply also. I would also like to say that HU my default is CR flop but 3 way I must admit, I sometimes go brain dead on the best way to protect my hand while also maximizing value. To clarify what you are tyring to say, and correct me if I am wrong here. You would check raise flop 3 way and call 3 bet? Which after further thinking of the SB, makes alot of sense now. Snd as for the turn bet/call down after wards if there is any raise HU? I am sure I am not the only one with this problem, but I tend to get into rapid fire mode and not take enough time to bring clarity to some situations, mainly these are where it shows to. As a result, I tend to react to fast and usually incorrectly play the rest of the hand.

[The Funky Llama]

yes, if he 3bet the flop I would just call down.

With a hand as strong as QQ here and without a read that button will raise overs almost always, I would be in value extraction mode rather than hand protection mode.

[StellarWind]

The correct way to play this flop depends significantly on how SB plays. Villain is thinking about that so you need to be thinking about that too. You should provide a read or articulate that you don't have a read.

I don't like the idea of checkraising the flop because I don't want Button checking behind with AK/AQ. That seems quite likely when you look at it from his 23/15 perspective. AK is rarely the best hand on this flop and he can't expect you to fold very often. But he's got enough overcard/backdoor pieces in his hand that he would really like to see the turn. So why bet and get himself pounded with checkraises by hands he has outs against?

Having bet the crucial question is whether to call down or remain aggressive. Usually I would call down and not expose myself to another raise that I have to payoff. My gut feeling as I read the hand for the first time is that you are in trouble here. You are behind a big part of his preflop range and you are also losing the outs war. Your pot equity is considerably lower than your chance of having the current best hand. Plus his flop raise is a bad sign. The core of our hopes for this hand are AK and AQ and I don't see them raising the flop too often. Other hands we beat like AJ, TT, and 88 have to be discounted quite a bit because of the preflop cap. Some of the hand ranges I've seen in this thread don't square well with 23/15.

The argument in favor of further aggression is that Button may be trying to promote his hand. This could happen because some TAGs believe that calling the flop in this situation is immoral. They are not calling with any hand that has a chance to be best and that includes AK and AQ. Another reason they may be raising AK is because SB is capable of folding the only pair and leaving them heads up with a slightly worse ace. That possibility in a big pot justifies all sorts of excessive force on their part. Your chances could be much better than I've portrayed.

So my final answer is ... it depends.