Settle a home poker game rule argument

skreemer7 · #1 09-09-2006, 02:57 AM

This happened a couple nights ago at our .25/.5 NL home game. At the end of one particular pot at showdown, the raisor flipped over his cards and showed his hand, and the other player said good hand and mucked his cards. Right before the loser mucked his cards, the bettor asked to see his hands, but the player mucked anyways. Then we got into a big discussion if we should be able to see all the hands at showdown.

I was thinking about it for a while, and I know that most casinos let you do it and you can see all the hands at showdown on most online sites, but, correct me if I am wrong, the reason for this is purely for the sake of collusion. I even know some casinos now that only let you ask to see a hand once per hour, and even then, you better have a good explanation. Collusion is not a problem at our home game, so I feel that the caller should not have to show his hand. Most people at the table disagreed with me.

Let me clarify my position if this does not make sense. This only applies to all the hands at showdown. I believe that the bettor on the river (or last to bet if checked on river) SHOULD have to show his hand no matter what. I think that is because a caller could be calling a bet to purely get information from the player, ie what hand he is playing, and he should be able to see the hand for the money he paid.

On the other hand, I dont think the caller should have to show his cards, even if requested. I dont see why he has any reason to show.

This also ties in with another issue, instamucking. Sometimes, when a player is called, the bettor will instantly muck his hand. Obviously, nothing can be done about this, but if at a casino for example, before you call, you say, I want to see those cards, and then call, can the bettor still legally muck his hand? I feel that by calling, part of the game is you get information from a player, and a (potentially) big part of the game, esp earlier on in home games when everything is cheap.

I am thinking of just making a house rule that the bettor has to show and the caller does not have to show, but is this issue something that casinos take relatively seriously, or is it just a matter of etiquette?

Tony_P · #2 09-09-2006, 04:04 AM

yes the rule is there for collusion, yes some floors are started to be conservative with allowing I Want To See Your Hand calls.

Best procedue for a home game though is to just make everyone turn their cards up at showdown and dealer pushes the pot. move the freakin game along. if someone is an ass and keeps instamucking don't invite him back.

dkgojackets · #3 09-09-2006, 06:44 PM

If you are playing casino rules, then yes, the bettor can see the other players hand if he asked before it was mucked. Let him know that he's a jerk for doing it too often, though. I define too often as more than once.

Cobra · #4 09-10-2006, 01:24 PM

One of the ways to settle this type of problem is to use Roberts Rules as your official home game set of rules and then make any adjustments you feel are required.

Roberts Rules states that at the Showdown anyone that wants to win the Pot must show all of there cards.

The last person to raise after the river shows his cards first. If after the river it goes check, check the person to check first shows there cards first.

Anyone who was dealt into the hand may ask to see the cards of anyone who was still in the hand at the showdown, wether the cards have been mucked or not. If this request is abused it may be denied by management.( It does not say this is for collusion but it is well known that it is).

So after the river betting is complete, the last raiser has two choices, show his cards or muck them, the caller has two choices, show his cards or muck them. Anyone dealt in may ask to see anyone left at the showdowns cards, wether mucked or not.

In our home game we do not allow anyone to see anyone elses cards unless they specifically tell who they think they are colluding with.

Cobra

LuckyTxGuy · #5 09-14-2006, 01:36 PM

We had this issue at my home game and it was really getting to be a fight at times over who did and didn't have to show. So to settle this problem we enacted a rule that any player who sees a showdown MUST show his hand. If you are calling with crap, that will be shown. If you missed your big draw, that will be shown. If you bet and no one calls, then you don't have to show your hand. Only a showdown with 2 or more players requires that you show your cards. We had a few grumblers at first but now everyone really likes the rule.

hustalasta · #6 09-14-2006, 02:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am making a house rule that the bettor has to show and the caller does not have to show

[/ QUOTE ]

Wongboy · #7 09-14-2006, 02:57 PM

Invoking IWTSTH is tantamount to accusing someone of cheating. I would handle the requestor the same way you would handle anyone who accuses another player of cheating at a home game. The burden of proof should be on the accuser. If they can prove that the other player is cheating, then the cheater should be kicked out of the game immediately and never invited back. Similarly, if the accuser cannot substantiate their allegation, then the accuser may be kicked out and not invited back.

When someone requests to see all hands, they should be required to say the following: "I think Tom and Joe are probably colluding because of _____, therefore I want to see all hands." The requestor should understand that this statement will effectively end his/her friendship with Tom and Joe, and will likely result in someone being disinvited from the game.

poloplayer909 · #8 09-14-2006, 06:19 PM

Hahahaha, a friend of mine once called a hand, and after seeing what he though was a flush he mucked his hand, then the opponent was like "Man i can't believe my aces held up". My friend claims to have held 2-pair, but the opponent had already scooped the pot and the cards were shuffled in. He thought he saw a better hand then his and then mucked his 2-pair. He was a good sport didn't complain about his stupidity. This has nothing to do with your question, just thought it was funny.

thegowzer · #9 09-17-2006, 07:14 PM

I've played a lot of online poker sites, and to the BEST of my knowledge:

ABSOLUTE POKER is the only site that shows all hands at showdown. Just click the "R" in the top left corner if the dude chooses to muck his losing hand and it will STILL be shown.

DavidNB · #10 09-17-2006, 08:00 PM

The bettor does not have the right to see the hand that was mucked. Unless he thought some one was cheating, he can not ask to see the cards. I would advise against having a rule that everyone has to show at the show down. Its changes the game. Online poker has a funny setup regarding mucked hands so don't pay attention to online pokwe rsites regarding this rule.

Regarding the bettor having to shsow instead of mucking, I'm not sure of the official rule. But IMO, if the bettor wishes to muck his hand, let him muck and haul in the pot yourself. He could be mucking the winning hand.