A strange 3rd and 4th street with TT-pocket-Stud8 30/60

[Joe Tall]

The 6-seat is a Hold'em player trying out Stud. He's the typical player that will overplay any three-low cards, any big pair, any three suited/connected, and he will stay on the gas until he hits resistance. Seat 1 is the same tight of player but is more seasoned and will make correct folds on later streets. The bring-in is a super solid tight Stud8 player that I have played tons of hands over the last three months. We see each other regularly in the game and if the game breaks to HU; we do not play each other.

7 Card Stud High-Low ($30/$60), Ante $5, Bring-In $10 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.83 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 7: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (4.17 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises

Comments on 3rd and 4th are welcome.

[Joe Tall]

I edited this out by accident but is critical to the hand. The 6-seat catches:

Seat 6: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

The case 8!

Reviewing 4th street:
Seat 1: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]bets___calls
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] raises
Seat 6: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[adanthar]

Once you decide to play on third, fourth has to be standard, doesn't it?

They both caught perfect(ly bad) for you to try this though. Is this enough hand to play on third, even vs. these guys?

[Raul Wong]

against two players...yuck

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
against two players...yuck

[/ QUOTE ]

Raul,

Which street? Both? Mind you, they likely have Razz-hands and most low cards are dead. I was looking to catch a perfect T early and be done with it on 4th.

Thanks,
Joe

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Once you decide to play on third, fourth has to be standard, doesn't it?

They both caught perfect(ly bad) for you to try this though. Is this enough hand to play on third, even vs. these guys?

[/ QUOTE ]

They both are overplaying HE players who likley have Razz-hands. It's funny how HE player become first level thinkers in Stud on 3rd street. I think it's just enough to get involved, if I spike a T, my implied odds are huge.

[Nell789]

[ QUOTE ]

They both are overplaying HE players who likley have Razz-hands. It's funny how HE player become first level thinkers in Stud on 3rd street.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you mind expanding on this point? I think you are describing perfectly, and would like more information on what you are talking about.

[SweetLuckyMe]

Once I see the case 8 I very much like the fastplay in that spot. You've got the equity edge and the hand that prefers as few competitors as possible. I'd really like to do something on 4th to sell that I've got a quality low hand and have them misreading me the whole way. That will get some calls later in the hand from weak high hands and tend to fold rough low draws.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you mind expanding on this point? I think you are describing perfectly, and would like more information on what you are talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

HE players that are new to Stud8 look at "Razz-hands" like 872r, etc and think, "I have three low, I can play", without looking out at the 3rd street hands, their position, what might happen on 4th street when the high leads, etc. They are first-level, "I know what I have", thinkers.

Added: As soon as the hand develops, they look at the board and start thinking, "oh now, what does he have" and become 2nd level thinkers on later streets.

[Raul Wong]

Yeah, sorry for the short response before but I just hate the idea of going after two players with a pair of tens. Even if they both have marginal holding it doesnt really seem like if you have any edge.

On 3rd playing against more than one player with let alone a pair of Ks or Qs is asking for it...not to mention Ts

On 4th they both caught the eights but do you think they are going to fold against your board? Na, they will think you have a low and you are going to make the pot really big instead and your pair of tens are going to shrink really fast. Even if you improve to Ts up or three of a kind they could start catching good and put you in a tough spot. Another thing that sucks IMO is that even when you do have the best hand you are going to have to make some crazy-thin-mega sick value bets to play this hand profitably.

Just my opinion though. I am a little rusty as I have been playing much more backgammon lately...but I still think this is definitly a muck on 3rd when it is going to be multi-way and the on 4th if I got there I wouild probably just call and then evaluate 5th...and then folding most of the time.

Edit...reading over the rest of the post I think you are discounting their range a little roo much. Either one of them could very easily have 8s up. Also, hitting one of the other two Ts is really hard! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]