LO8 Question - Knocking out the same low draws

[mkflsam]

I just finished Ray Zee's book. In it he mentions a few times if you know an opponent is going for the same low draw as you it's very important to try and force him out of the hand and guarentee half the pot for yourself instead of getting quartered.

In today's online games, say for 3/6 to 10/20, I find it really hard to get someone off the nut low draw. Obviously if your opponent is tight/solid and can lay down the hand forcing him to call 2 bets is a very powerful play.

Still, it seems like more often than not you're better off playing the hand in a way so it only costs other players 1 bet to see the next card. I think you gain more from keeping worse low draws in, than raising and hoping to knock out the nut low draw. Forcing others to call 2 bets seems to only knock out the 2nd/3rd nut low draw type hands and getting the pot 3 handed with a high hand and two nut low draws.

What do you think? I guess it just comes down to if you're playing on a tight or loose game. I was just surprised because I'm assuming a good online LO8 game (35-40% table VPIP) would be comparable to a pretty tight live LO8 game.

BTW, if it wasn't clear, I'm mainly just considering the sitaution where someone bets, and you're next to act and you just have the nut low draw on the flop. Say there are 3-5 players. No high possibilities or redraws.

[TxRedMan]

Trying to knock out other low draws at low limit O8 is a lesson in futility. All it does is build the pot. People don't fold in this game very often, especially at the lower limits. You should adopt a strategy that fosters this understanding.

Zee must have played in vastly different games than what are available today when he wrote that book, or he was playing with solid players, but I can say that trying that move in LO8 is a losing proposition in the short and long term.

It's a wonderful idea, except, you made a good point, often times a worse low draw sticks around with the nut low draws in a hand and that's how a profit is made.

It works better in the higher limits, but you still have to know your opposition to use it.

[EffenDolts]

Your only hope of knocking out the same low draw in loose LO8 games is to raise preflop. I think a hand like A4KK-ss can be raised in early position PF just to fold out another A4 acting behind you. You might even get an A3 to fold.

Postflop, I would tend to call and keep worse lo draws in the pot. Of course, if I have nut-lo-draw with CF protection, I will try to bet the other lo hand out. For example, A349 on a board of 28K with 2 flush cards. Six of my lo outs CF the other A3xx lo and may give me a backdoor wheel. It is a huge mistake for naked-NLD to call you in this spot.

On the other hand, if your backup lo card is worse than his or you have no CF protection), you are in deep doo-doo. If you really knew that he had the same lo draw, you might be best to fold. I don't think it is +EV given the slim chance that you can fold him out.

BTW, there is always some chance that the third player is really playing for high, only. In this case, you might be making a big mistake to knock him out.

Effen

[ZenMusician]

Who gains more, the guy who cannot be pushed off 1/4 of the pot
and winds up winning the whole Lo when you fold, or the patient guy who
gives up his 1/4? It seems sometimes like the idiot who gets your share
might have an interesting idea.

If you suspect your opponent is solid - and I am noticing
this especially in PL - should you not often push a naked Lo
because "he knows he'll get quartered" and fold?

-ZEN

[EffenDolts]

[ QUOTE ]

BTW, if it wasn't clear, I'm mainly just considering the sitaution where someone bets, and you're next to act and you just have the nut low draw on the flop. Say there are 3-5 players. No high possibilities or redraws.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think most authors say you should only bet to knock out other lows when you also have some high prospects. If you have zero high prospects (because the flop is 789-suited, for example), I will fold a naked A2 to a leadoff bet without a thought. I can't even construct a scenario where it makes sense to raise with three others to act behind me. Your equity isn't good if you end up headsup against the high, and horrible if only the other A2 calls. And if the other A2 has some high chances, he will probably call.

Bottom line, I don't think you can construct a set of hands where this is plausibly +EV, within the conditions expressed in the OP.

If I am 100% sure that I am drawing for a quarter, I don't want to be in the pot.

Effen

[Ray Zee]

its an advanced play that works well when it can be used. in loose small stakes games with lots of callers it doesnt happen very often. but in higher games or against certain players if you can find the right spot say even just once a month to make the play work. you may make say just 50 bucks from it. thats 600 a year. little things add up over a lifetime.