To give up or not to give up small edges in the middle to endgame

[sunrise]

I think I have a tendency to push small edges preflop in the mid to late game. I have a friend who suggested to me that when playing against opponents who I outclass, or presumably outclass perhaps I should wait for a better spot, or get into small pots with them and outplay them after the flop, rather than say getting all the money in when i'm 55/45 or even 60/40.

In many tournaments this has presented a problem for me, particularly with LP raises on my BB when I wake up with an A. Naturally my initial reaction is to take a look at the pot odds, and how much the villain has left in his stack and compare that with how much is in my stack. Then I review my reads on this particular opponent. If I think I'm ahead, I often push, really just hoping to take the pot down PF and send a message not to mess with my blind. I find a lot of the time the villain calls with KQ, KJ, KT, and perhaps QJ, or sometimes a weaker ace.

I find I'm right more often than not in these situations with regards to my read on my opponents hand, yet I'm typically never more than a 60/40 favorite. Oftentimes they hit and I dont, and I lose perhaps 25 to even 50% of my stack, or even more.

Other situations are when I'm raising with an A late, say A5-AT, and a villain pushes on a resteal. Again I go with my reads, pot odds, etc...

The same problem arises with small to medium pairs. I'm typically always flipping in these spots, so I'm now only a very slight favorite.

For example in a 30$ deepstack on stars. ITM, 24 players left. Villain has been very loose, and aggressive and is basically a donkey.
Had raised b4 with Td6d, got called, made no c-bet and chased a QsJd4c flop for a backdoor flush.

My image has been fairly tight. Blinds 2k/4K ...antes??
Villain has about 190K, I have about 110. I am on BB with 44. He makes a standard raise in either the CO or the button. Since his range here is huge I figure to have a lot of FE. So I push. After awhile he calls with AK o/s, hits a K and I'm busto in 24th.

One side of me thinks it is way too weak/tight to fold 44 there to this particular villain, another side would rather wait for a better opportunity to double up through same villain by outplaying him after the flop, or catch him chasing some BS like he has been seen to do.

Also what about the flipside? Lets say I am villain with AK in lp and a tight player pushes on the blinds and it is more than likely that this player has a pair, or another AK. Is this always call for more than 50% of our chips?

I'd say AK is also the hand that seems to either make me or break me late in the game. I have folded it in certain spots but typically I will call, or more often push and go off to the races for either a double up, or a bust.

I'm at work now or I might have some specific hand histories to include. Forgive me if this is a little long and rambled.

[nath]

No, there is nothing wrong with pushing edges, even against bad players. It's even more important in a tournament where everyone will be fighting to get his chips before someone else will.
If you'd just called preflop, and check-folded when he jammed a T98 flop and showed AK, would you be saying the same thing?
You have to gamble to win tournaments. You will not get through the late stages playing it safe.

[uclabruinz]

I'm a firm believer that it is more complicated then just taking any perceived edge. I think exploring this further will be good for your game, sunrise.

[TakenItEasy]

In some of your examples you meantion that you have only a small edge with Ax vs KJ or a small pair vs overs but you are forgetting to include the EV from villian folding. It's more +EV than it appears.

[sunrise]

Okay thanks.
btw Ucla, I agree with you. How would you go about exploring this further?

I think partially I've just been on the losing side of a lot of coinflips lately(whether I'm a fav or an underdog) and it has become a little irritating. Especially when in some instances I've had a decent amount to even a large amount of chips, and really could have waited for a better spot to get them ALL in.

So, maybe a little results-oriented thinking. Perhaps I would not have even gotten as deep in some tourney's without pushing edges. I suppose I would have to go over many hand histories in the lategame and take a look.

[Sherman]

I've been experimenting lately (with some good results, but I think I'm on a heater) gambooling it up when I am in the yellow zone. In the green zone, I pretty much play a tag/conservative/HOH v.I game. However, in the yellow zone I am very active and willing to push any small edge to the felt. The advantage of this is I usually avoid play in the orange/red zones where I basically need the deck to hit me. I either bust out in the yellow zone or a build a healthy stack in the green zone and continue to TAG it up.

[uclabruinz]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay thanks.
btw Ucla, I agree with you. How would you go about exploring this further?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's easy to get results oriented when we go through one of those "I can't win a flip!" stretches. So don't overthink things. I guess I would recommend going back through your hand histories and looking at these types of situations. You should be asking yourself every time what your stack will be if you win, if you lose, and if you just fold. What kind of implied equity in the tournamnet does each result bring? What is your standing in the tournament, i.e. are you in a situation where you need a flip, or where one will bring you a ton of implied equity? For example, are you approaching the bubble of a tournamnet where players are likely to be very passive on that bubble, sitting on 20bbs where doubling up to 40 will give you the stack you need to abuse that bubble (and are you at a table where that is likely to occur)?

These are just a few of the examples of things I think about beyond just the equity/odds of the specific hand I am confronted with.

[mornelth]

ZOMG metagame...

OP - read Gigabet's Theory of stack sizes, if you haven't yet. It's +EV overall (and +++EV if you understand it [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])

[shaundeeb]

I agree with you in theory but in your particular example calling and playing post flop is much better.