Where does +ev come from?

[UBRAKE.com]

Lets say you have flopped a flush draw and those are your only outs to win...there is $100 in the pot and you have to call $10 for the next card. You are heads up in the pot. POt is laying 10:1 and odds of flush on next card is 4:1 (approx)...

My question is...since calling $10 would be +ev...does that make this flop bet -EV for our opponent? doesnt ev have to come from somewhere? Both players cant have +ev at the same time right?

[SamIAm]

Calling has a higher value than folding. That doesn't mean it's better than if the guy hadn't bet at all.

+EV is referring comparing your options, not comparing yourself to your opponent.
-Sam

[alphatmw]

the +EV comes from -EV play preflop. for example, if it was 5h4h vs. AsAc, and you both put in $50 PF, you made a -EV play preflop. flop is KhQh7s and he bets $10. you call. you're call is now +EV, but certainly the +EV doesn't overcome the -EV move preflop.

so YES. two players can have +EV at the same time. just pretend i go to the 25NL tables and put in an extra $500 into every pot for fun. players could virtually call down with any hand and be +EV.

[DonkBluffer]

+EV doesn't come from -EV preflop. It comes from the small bet on the flop.

I never do calculations like this, so correct me if I'm wrong...

The flush draw will hit on the next card 19% of the time. There's $100 in the pot and you have to call $10.
Even if your opponent folds every time when your flush hits (no implied odds), you will win the $100 19% of the time, which means you will win $19 in the long term by making that call. It costs you only $10 so you profit.
edit: is it actually (110*0.19)-10 ? Why?

If your opponent would bet more, it would no longer be +EV to call here.

[Shroomy]

[ QUOTE ]
Lets say you have flopped a flush draw and those are your only outs to win...there is $100 in the pot and you have to call $10 for the next card. You are heads up in the pot. POt is laying 10:1 and odds of flush on next card is 4:1 (approx)...

My question is...since calling $10 would be +ev...does that make this flop bet -EV for our opponent? doesnt ev have to come from somewhere? Both players cant have +ev at the same time right?

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes you both can have +ev, it is the money already in the pot that is making it +ev.

At some point someone made a -ev bet or blind (assuming they knew the opponents cards which they didnt)

[GMMigge]

The call is +EV, because of the pot odds. But the bet in itself that he calls is a money loser for him since he is not the favourite to win the hand. The call is only +EV because of the money already in the pot before the bet. Therefore, the caller want the bet to be as small as possible.

The bet is +EV, because the bettor is the favourite to win the hand. Of the X dollars the bettor bets and gets called, the bettor will on average win more than the caller. This is called a "value bet".

Despite the bet being +EV, it's still a mistake because it's too small. Generally speaking, the bettor should either bet enough to make his opponent fold incorrectly, or enough to make his opponent call incorrectly. $10 is definitely too small a bet in this situation in any case, even if his opponent folds to it, since the bettor in that case could might as well had bet more to extract more value in case his opponent would call.

[alphatmw]

[ QUOTE ]
+EV doesn't come from -EV preflop. It comes from the small bet on the flop.


[/ QUOTE ] you don't seem to understand what OP is asking. he's asking why both players have +EV plays. the bettor is +EV, the caller is +EV. he asks why this is possible. the reason this is possible is because of the pot size, which could ONLY be built from someone's -EV play preflop.

[Quanah Parker]

[ QUOTE ]
Lets say you have flopped a flush draw and those are your only outs to win...there is $100 in the pot and you have to call $10 for the next card. You are heads up in the pot. POt is laying 10:1 and odds of flush on next card is 4:1 (approx)...

My question is...since calling $10 would be +ev...does that make this flop bet -EV for our opponent? doesnt ev have to come from somewhere? Both players cant have +ev at the same time right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dark matter is the mysterious force behind these apparently opposing possibilities.

If I reveal more than the men in white helicopters will take me away.

[phosix]

[ QUOTE ]
The call is +EV, because of the pot odds. But the bet in itself that he calls is a money loser for him since he is not the favourite to win the hand. The call is only +EV because of the money already in the pot before the bet. Therefore, the caller want the bet to be as small as possible.

The bet is +EV, because the bettor is the favourite to win the hand. Of the X dollars the bettor bets and gets called, the bettor will on average win more than the caller. This is called a "value bet".

Despite the bet being +EV, it's still a mistake because it's too small. Generally speaking, the bettor should either bet enough to make his opponent fold incorrectly, or enough to make his opponent call incorrectly. $10 is definitely too small a bet in this situation in any case, even if his opponent folds to it, since the bettor in that case could might as well had bet more to extract more value in case his opponent would call.

[/ QUOTE ]

im not a stats freak but if i had top pair and i was a 4-1 fav goin to both rounds id sure take 50/50 on my bet no matter how big or small.

[Mickey Brausch]

Each player claculates his own expectation. Done right, that calculation is correct as long as the math and his assumptions are correct. But, in reality, of course, there is only one true EV for each player. And, more often than not, it is not the same as the EV that the player calculated, even though the math and his assumptions are correct.

The way to understand the whole thing is to pretend that all players are playing with their cards face up -- and take it from there.

Mickey Brausch