Protecting 2nd pair in big pot

[yukoncpa]

Villain is 31/18/1.8 after about 300 hands.
My only note is that he is aggressive.

4 handed - CO limps, Villain ( button) raises, LB calls, I call on BB with J8s. Family pot.

Flop is 7,8,K ( rainbow, one card to my suit )

Everyone checks to villain who bets, lb folds, I check raise, Co folds, villain 3 bets, I call

Turn is 3 ( I have no flush draw )

I check, villain bets

What’s my move from here to river?

[MacGuyV]

Looks like a very standard calldown.

[UBRAKE.com]

Since you are up against an aggro player, I think an adjustment is needed. There are 2 great ways to beat aggro players 1.take away their ability to bluff you by going into a passive calling mode with average hands 2. punish them with above average made hands by getting in bets on the turn and river.

The flop raise is not good because it puts you in a tough situation most of the time. Chances are that either somebody flopped a K or a draw and will call your two bets cold or even when they fold and you get hu with villan..he will then shwo aggro on flop or turn and put you to a test.

When I take a flop with a hand like J8s from the bb multiway I am not looking to flop a pair, and then take chances with it...Im looking to flop a good draw and win a big pot. If I was confident that the other players left to act will not raise the flop, then youcould cimply call one flop bet and fold turn ui. Dont forget that alot of scare cards will come on the turn and destroy your hand.

You have the right idea by raising to protect, just the wrong opponent and wrong hand i think.

[yukoncpa]

Hey thanks, I'm learning a lot here.

[MacGuyV]

[ QUOTE ]
Since you are up against an aggro player, I think an adjustment is needed. There are 2 great ways to beat aggro players 1.take away their ability to bluff you by going into a passive calling mode with average hands 2. punish them with above average made hands by getting in bets on the turn and river.

The flop raise is not good because it puts you in a tough situation most of the time. Chances are that either somebody flopped a K or a draw and will call your two bets cold or even when they fold and you get hu with villan..he will then shwo aggro on flop or turn and put you to a test.

When I take a flop with a hand like J8s from the bb multiway I am not looking to flop a pair, and then take chances with it...Im looking to flop a good draw and win a big pot. If I was confident that the other players left to act will not raise the flop, then youcould cimply call one flop bet and fold turn ui. Dont forget that alot of scare cards will come on the turn and destroy your hand.

You have the right idea by raising to protect, just the wrong opponent and wrong hand i think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Completely disagree. Because he's so aggressive he's more likely to C-bet no hand in a 4way pot. One guy already folded so when we C/R we just want the 1 limper to fold, which will happen frequently. Getting 3bet isn't a big deal because he could be doing such with anything since it's HU at that point. Just because flopping an OESD/FD is preferable to middle pair doesn't mean you should give up the pot to a turn Cbet with the latter - that is a recipe to get steamrolled by a Lag and it's not a good adjustment.

[UBRAKE.com]

1. we dont have high equity here on the flop
2. i think calling down after villan 3 bets is bad

[PokrLikeItsProse]

I don't really like check-raising hyper-aggressive players with mediocre hands out of position on the flop because I hate it when they raise the turn with air after I get committed to betting the turn. If you are going to check-raise the villain, I would prefer waiting until the turn to do so.

Have you seen the villain 3-bet the flop with hands worse than middle pair? If so, easy calldown. Has the villain been taking down a lot of pots without showing down hands? I think you have to call down.

[Mossberg]

I think the flop is fine. As for whether to call-down or fold to the turn bet, I'd just fold it.. Unless you had a specific read that makes you think this guy would go nuts like this with something like AJ or AQ, I think you're up against KQ, AK, 77-AA.. I can't really put any reasonable player who isn't a bluff-o-matic on a hand that we beat here.. You say in your OP that he's "aggressive".. Well that doesn't say much, because any decent player is aggressive, right? Now if we had a read that this guy has a problem with misplacing aggression, then we'd have a whole different hand here..

Everyone will probably want to bury me alive and throw rocks at my head, but I don't care if it's a big pot.. If we can't put a reasonable player on something we beat, why are we going to kindly donate 2bb's to him? I think alot of players over-value these big pot situations, and need to learn when to find a fold. As The Bryce stated in that article he posted recently, we need to discipline ourselves to find spots to stray from the rules we have cemented into our daily play - I think folding here is an example of when to stray from the "get to showdown in a big pot" rule..

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you seen the villain 3-bet the flop with hands worse than middle pair? If so, easy calldown. Has the villain been taking down a lot of pots without showing down hands? I think you have to call down.



[/ QUOTE ]

This villain seems like a good, winning player. If checked to, he seems to bet both the flop and turn lightly, but his 3 bet of flop rang an alarm bell in my head, however, I hadn't taken note of what he has when he 3 bets flop ( probably because he doesn't do it much). In actual hand, I folded, but was wondering afterwards if this was too weak.

[MacGuyV]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone will probably want to bury me alive and throw rocks at my head, but I don't care if it's a big pot.. If we can't put a reasonable player on something we beat, why are we going to kindly donate 2bb's to him? I think alot of players over-value these big pot situations, and need to learn when to find a fold. As The Bryce stated in that article he posted recently, we need to discipline ourselves to find spots to stray from the rules we have cemented into our daily play - I think folding here is an example of when to stray from the "get to showdown in a big pot" rule..

[/ QUOTE ]

For me it's not about being an Ed Miller stooge, it's about estimating the strength of a line based on tens of thousands of hands of experience. I fold for 1 bet on the river in big pots more than most; primarily because river raises and checkraises are so rarely bluffs. Flop 3bets from players (much less Lags) in position are bluffs all the freaking time. Maybe I just have selective memory or maybe Stars 5/10 is the Laggiest games on the planet but IMO folding the turn sucks ass and it blows and it's awful and it has nothing to do with anything I've read in a book or forum.